Reserve Societies: legit way to raise funds/interest or jumping the shark?

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
JulianB1

JulianB1

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
15,929
Reaction score
73,273
Location
Florence, SC
So today I see a Facebook post about a new brewery that's opening soon and I'm thinking "oh cool, this place sounds interesting, the logo is nice, etc." and I see (in the same post) that they are already selling memberships to some sort of reserve society. This for a brewery that hasn't even opened yet, and whose website is "coming soon". I don't want to name the brewery because this is not an attempt to pick on them, but is any of this starting to rub people the wrong way? Of course, the most extreme example might be from that thread the other week with the Belgium trip kickstarter offering memberships to some future reserve society for a brewery that doesn't even exist.

There's obviously a ton of these already in existence and more popping up seemingly every month; the following list compiled by users here is a good starting point but I suspect already a bit out of date:

http://www.talkbeer.com/community/threads/brewery-society-roundup.1842/

I'm not against this idea in general, especially when it's done well. And I'll proudly admit to having a De Garde Keeper's Society membership; I support the brewery, degardebrewing's vision for his beers and the future, and most importantly I have really enjoyed their beers. But I wouldn't have bought a membership without having visited the brewery and having had a great day trying and loving the beers. De Garde wasn't selling society memberships before they were selling tasting room pours like some breweries now seem to be doing. I think at a bare minimum, before offering these kinds of memberships, the brewery in question should be up-and-running and consistently producing beer that meets their own personal quality standards, which are available for public consumption. So no selling memberships to a brewery that isn't even running on its main equipment based on having poured some test batches brewed off a homebrew system. I feel like too many startups now are jumping on this train as a way to get some quick cash and build up hype, since it's what a lot of the "cool kids" (Crooked Stave, Bruery, Hill Farmstead, etc.) are doing. Thoughts?
 
A bar that opened near me a few months ago did a kickstarter to get some funds to put the finishing touches on the space, and the highest tier was a "mug club" type thing. $1000 and you get your own mug, 20 ounces (so 16 ounces bigger than most beers, and 10oz bigger than the special stuff), and a free beer a day for life. It's appealing if you're a local, right? But you have to sign up sight unseen, maybe the place will suck, or it'll close in a few months, etc. So you're taking on some risk, but there's obvious upside. And it's appealing to the bar too because they get some interest-free funds.

Anyway, I don't think that kind of mug club is obviously offensive to people, so I don't get why a new place starting a reserve society would be either. The beer you get usually pays for itself, and there are other perks that go along with it. There's obviously some risk in that you don't know how good the beer will be, but that's true of established breweries too (how many people joined the CS RS just for Persica this year? OOPS). Whether or not it's worth it is going to depend on how much risk you're willing to take. But if you're willing to take some risks the benefits are obvious for both parties.
 
I've got not problem with it and really like the business model. I'm not likely to join a new unproven brewery's society unless they are doing something extremely unique and have some positive reviews this far.

I'm still extremely butt hurt on not getting in to Crooked Stave Reserve this year.

I'd also like to see laws relaxed so breweries can **** interstate.
 
i guess i should asterisk my above post. im talking specifically about breweries that launch with a reserve (like the rare barrel or modern times &c). these just seem destined to be shitty and/or ill-executed. get your bearings on running your business, start making consistently excellent beers that are sought after, THEN consider whether you can and should offer a reserve as a supplement to your operation.

im fine with reserves in general, quite enthusiastic even about the ones ive joined for 2014 (CS and SARA)
 
grandmeaulnes said:
i guess i should asterisk my above post. im talking specifically about breweries that launch with a reserve (like the rare barrel or modern times &c). these just seem destined to be shitty and/or ill-executed. get your bearings on running your business, start making consistently excellent beers that are sought after, THEN consider whether you can and should offer a reserve as a supplement to your operation.

im fine with reserves in general, quite enthusiastic even about the ones ive joined for 2014 (CS and SARA)
Click to expand...
Rare Barrel has actually been making pretty good beer. And I've heard that the bottled stuff (what will get released to the society) is really awesome. I think it would be crazy for anyone out of town to join, but for someone who lives nearby (my fiancee can stop by and get a growler fill on the way home from work) it's pretty appealing.
 
stupac2 said:
Rare Barrel has actually been making pretty good beer. And I've heard that the bottled stuff (what will get released to the society) is really awesome. I think it would be crazy for anyone out of town to join, but for someone who lives nearby (my fiancee can stop by and get a growler fill on the way home from work) it's pretty appealing.
Click to expand...

thats good. the moniker "rare barrel" and having a beer thats actually called "sirius black" has definitely biased me against them from the jump.
 
grandmeaulnes said:
i guess i should asterisk my above post. im talking specifically about breweries that launch with a reserve (like the rare barrel or modern times &c). these just seem destined to be shitty and/or ill-executed. get your bearings on running your business, start making consistently excellent beers that are sought after, THEN consider whether you can and should offer a reserve as a supplement to your operation.
Click to expand...

I can't agree with this more. New breweries are a dime a dozen now. I'm hesitant to use the word " bubble" to describe craft beer growth, but there is definitely an irrational exuberance about how many of these new places are bound to be good. I still think $10 a bomber is a lot to pay, and so many of these unproven brewers are charging double that out of the gate, more in some reserve societies. You're paying them to experiment and figure their **** out. **** that.
 
The ones that really bug me are when there seems to be a lack of imagination in the execution. I've seen a couple in New England where they're basically just asking you to pre-pay for widely available beers and throwing in a party, t-shirt, glasses, etc. A well thought out program from a brewery with a pedigree is one thing. When I feel like someone's hand is just trying to reach into my pocket I turn into an irrational lunatic.
 
another thing that annoys me with brand new breweries doing reserves is that like, in the case of modern times for example, it seems as though in most instances the reserve beers are just "better" (or adjunct-laden) iterations of the flagships. why not make your mediocre standard offerings better before trying to sell people on a membership?
 
pjl44 said:
The ones that really bug me are when there seems to be a lack of imagination in the execution. I've seen a couple in New England where they're basically just asking you to pre-pay for widely available beers and throwing in a party, t-shirt, glasses, etc. A well thought out program from a brewery with a pedigree is one thing. When I feel like someone's hand is just trying to reach into my pocket I turn into an irrational lunatic.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the Idle Hands/Enlightenment one? I have zero problem with that, because they're giving you the case discount (15%) over retail too. They're offering it as an option, not trying to buy you in to "rare" "one-off" beers that you can't get elsewhere. If you don't wanna do it, so be it, and it's not really going to impact them very much. I'm actually usually MORE annoyed by the ones that are offering "special" beers - e.g. the Night Shift one, which I joined, and which annoyed me because the quality of the beers was, if anything, lower than the quality of their regularly available lineup.
 
Can someone please fill me in on exactly how these reserve societies, such as Bruery's, works?

It seems to me that you pay the brewery to gain special privileges to buy their not-publicly-released beers. If that is true, do you get discounts on it? I imagine I am missing something (hence me asking for help) because it seems like you are paying them to buy their beer. I know with Bruery those beers are club-only releases, but you still pay money (couple hundred $) just to buy the beer.

I'm not trying to pass judgement on these breweries. People will do as they please. I am simply asking for some clarification as to how they work, and why someone would pay a company to purchase a product. Isn't that kinda buying the product twice?

Any helpful info is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
Never bothered me before. It's a "product" they want to sell. If people will buy it, I can dig it.

Of course, the level of tackiness depends a lot on what is being offered, for how much, and how certain the return on investment is.

"hi i is new to brewaing and i can give you free beers next year $1000 plz?" Yeah no.
"Give us $40 and we'll give you first crack at every truck chaser we release and a few extra benefits. You already love our beer and would truck chase for it anyway." SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
 
1987GN said:
Can someone please fill me in on exactly how these reserve societies, such as Bruery's, works?

It seems to me that you pay the brewery to gain special privileges to buy their not-publicly-released beers. If that is true, do you get discounts on it? I imagine I am missing something (hence me asking for help) because it seems like you are paying them to buy their beer. I know with Bruery those beers are club-only releases, but you still pay money (couple hundred $) just to buy the beer.

I'm not trying to pass judgement on these breweries. People will do as they please. I am simply asking for some clarification as to how they work, and why someone would pay a company to purchase a product. Isn't that kinda buying the product twice?

Any helpful info is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Click to expand...

the better societies (namely the bruery's) will, for your money, give you:

1) roughly the cost of membership worth of beer, a fixed allocation given to you as part of your membership.
2) access to special events, special tappings, etc.
3) guaranteed access to society exclusive beer purchases and a much easier time for rare non-exclusives. one example of how this is better is the black tuesday sale - the RS group is guaranteed a certain number of bottles that they don't have to be online at a specific time to be guaranteed and they don't have to worry about server crashes and constantly refreshing, etc.
4) discount on beer purchases.
 
Obviously the breweries selling memberships are making $$ doing it, or they wouldn't be growing.

I think they took this from the wine world where cult (mostly California) wineries began offering the single vineyard/reserves through mailing list only & the cut off the list & placed people on wait lists, drove up demand etc.

My own admittedly myopic opinion is that breweries shouldn't chase wineries for ideas.

My .02
 
I'm baffled that so many people are trying to get past a good ol fashioned business model and pitch to investors who earn a return for a period of time or some sort of permenant ownership. I am really annoyed that any of these breweries are asking openly for donations. That is what family, investors and banks are for if you domt have the money yourself. I'm not donating money to a brewery unless I know the brewers. If I donate money, it is for an actual charity or someone who needs it to live, not for a brewery to expand their sour program. Then again, we are a free market and if breweries are able to survive by asking for handouts, good for them.
 
1987GN said:
I'm not trying to pass judgement on these breweries. People will do as they please. I am simply asking for some clarification as to how they work, and why someone would pay a company to purchase a product. Isn't that kinda buying the product twice?
Click to expand...

Bear in mind that not all of these societies (really, beer subscription services) are created equal. In the case of Bruery, the Reserve Society membership costs $295 which includes, in terms of tangible rewards, $260* worth of beer (as it is made available through the year) and some piece of merch, usually a hoodie. In this case there is minimal markup and the deal is basically that you pay in advance for the beers in exchange for guaranteed allocations and, location permitting, access to member-only events at the brewery.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is Upland Brewing's Rare Barrel Society, where the $300 membership cost includes two tasting glasses, VIP passes to at least one brewery event and guaranteed allocations for six limited beer releases but no beer is included. The rationale given by Upland is that 1) they can't legally pre-sell beer in the state of IN**, and 2) all of the proceeds will be poured into expanding their sour program.


*$234, if you want to include the RS member discount on the beers included in membership.
** There is STRONG reason to believe this is not the case.
 
yeahnatenelson said:
Bear in mind that not all of these societies (really, beer subscription services) are created equal. In the case of Bruery, the Reserve Society membership costs $295 which includes, in terms of tangible rewards, $260* worth of beer (as it is made available through the year) and some piece of merch, usually a hoodie. In this case there is minimal markup and the deal is basically that you pay in advance for the beers in exchange for guaranteed allocations and, location permitting, access to member-only events at the brewery.

On the opposite end of the spectrum is Upland Brewing's Rare Barrel Society, where the $300 membership cost includes two tasting glasses, VIP passes to at least one brewery event and guaranteed allocations for six limited beer releases but no beer is included. The rationale given by Upland is that 1) they can't legally pre-sell beer in the state of IN**, and 2) all of the proceeds will be poured into expanding their sour program.


*$234, if you want to include the RS member discount on the beers included in membership.
** There is STRONG reason to believe this is not the case.
Click to expand...
Upland was $250. You forgot to mention the certificate.

Also, guarantee (no need for lottery) right to buy bottles was 8 (but they have allowed 9 already, so 17).

And it was tickets to 3 events (with a +1 to 2 of them).

But yeah, I bought one.

(Also, supposedly some *members only* beers)
 
JulianB said:
So today I see a Facebook post about a new brewery that's opening soon and I'm thinking "oh cool, this place sounds interesting, the logo is nice, etc." and I see (in the same post) that they are already selling memberships to some sort of reserve society. This for a brewery that hasn't even opened yet, and whose website is "coming soon". I don't want to name the brewery because this is not an attempt to pick on them, but is any of this starting to rub people the wrong way? Of course, the most extreme example might be from that thread the other week with the Belgium trip kickstarter offering memberships to some future reserve society for a brewery that doesn't even exist.

There's obviously a ton of these already in existence and more popping up seemingly every month; the following list compiled by users here is a good starting point but I suspect already a bit out of date:

http://www.talkbeer.com/community/threads/brewery-society-roundup.1842/

I'm not against this idea in general, especially when it's done well. And I'll proudly admit to having a De Garde Keeper's Society membership; I support the brewery, degardebrewing's vision for his beers and the future, and most importantly I have really enjoyed their beers. But I wouldn't have bought a membership without having visited the brewery and having had a great day trying and loving the beers. De Garde wasn't selling society memberships before they were selling tasting room pours like some breweries now seem to be doing. I think at a bare minimum, before offering these kinds of memberships, the brewery in question should be up-and-running and consistently producing beer that meets their own personal quality standards, which are available for public consumption. So no selling memberships to a brewery that isn't even running on its main equipment based on having poured some test batches brewed off a homebrew system. I feel like too many startups now are jumping on this train as a way to get some quick cash and build up hype, since it's what a lot of the "cool kids" (Crooked Stave, Bruery, Hill Farmstead, etc.) are doing. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
There's a place in Duluth, MN called Blacklist that started out this way. They had a 12 month "Beer + Art Project" that they supposedly starting at the beginning of last year. Not only do you pay a bunch of money to get beers from a new and unproven brewery (who is starting with some wild ales so the chance of infection of non-wild ales is huge), but you also get "art" each month to go with your beer. And they weren't going to ship, so if you didn't live in the Duluth area you'd have to find a way to get your beer. Now Duluth has a small craft beer scene and couple hundred thousand people living in the area, but c'mon, most of your demand is going to come from the Twin Cities, which is 2.5 hours away. Who wants to drive up there every month to get your 1 bottle and some wack watercolor of a goblet with trippy ruby tones flowing out of it and into the sunset or some ****? Not me. Who the hell wants that much beer art anyways?

Not saying they pulled the plug for sure, but the first three beers in the series have been released in the Twin Cities. I'd be pretty pissed if I paid for their project and saw the same beers show up for regular purchase.

http://www.blacklistbrewing.com/
 
sacrelicio said:
There's a place in Duluth, MN called Blacklist that started out this way. They had a 12 month "Beer + Art Project" that they supposedly starting at the beginning of last year. Not only do you pay a bunch of money to get beers from a new and unproven brewery (who is starting with some wild ales so the chance of infection of non-wild ales is huge), but you also get "art" each month to go with your beer. And they weren't going to ship, so if you didn't live in the Duluth area you'd have to find a way to get your beer. Now Duluth has a small craft beer scene and couple hundred thousand people living in the area, but c'mon, most of your demand is going to come from the Twin Cities, which is 2.5 hours away. Who wants to drive up there every month to get your 1 bottle and some wack watercolor of a goblet with trippy ruby tones flowing out of it and into the sunset or some ****? Not me. Who the hell wants that much beer art anyways?

Not saying they pulled the plug for sure, but the first three beers in the series have been released in the Twin Cities. I'd be pretty pissed if I paid for their project and saw the same beers show up for regular purchase.

http://www.blacklistbrewing.com/
Click to expand...


Blacklist Brewing is currently a gypsy brewing, nomadic, operation
Click to expand...

probably some evil twin collabs in the works then :rolleyes:
 
tehzachatak said:
Are you talking about the Idle Hands/Enlightenment one? I have zero problem with that, because they're giving you the case discount (15%) over retail too. They're offering it as an option, not trying to buy you in to "rare" "one-off" beers that you can't get elsewhere. If you don't wanna do it, so be it, and it's not really going to impact them very much. I'm actually usually MORE annoyed by the ones that are offering "special" beers - e.g. the Night Shift one, which I joined, and which annoyed me because the quality of the beers was, if anything, lower than the quality of their regularly available lineup.
Click to expand...

That was certainly one I was referencing. I can get a discount for buying in bulk from most stores and I'm not limiting myself to one brewery. Just don't like the idea of them asking for a chunk of money up front for stuff I can wander in and buy off the shelf if I feel like it.

To your point, while I appreciate the Night Shift model more, quality is the problem in their case. If they were pumping out top notch stuff, I'd be shelling out the dough for that right along with you. Alas, I've had enough of their lineup to know to stay far far away from that barrel society.
 
sacrelicio said:
There's a place in Duluth, MN called Blacklist that started out this way. They had a 12 month "Beer + Art Project" that they supposedly starting at the beginning of last year. Not only do you pay a bunch of money to get beers from a new and unproven brewery (who is starting with some wild ales so the chance of infection of non-wild ales is huge), but you also get "art" each month to go with your beer. And they weren't going to ship, so if you didn't live in the Duluth area you'd have to find a way to get your beer. Now Duluth has a small craft beer scene and couple hundred thousand people living in the area, but c'mon, most of your demand is going to come from the Twin Cities, which is 2.5 hours away. Who wants to drive up there every month to get your 1 bottle and some wack watercolor of a goblet with trippy ruby tones flowing out of it and into the sunset or some ****? Not me. Who the hell wants that much beer art anyways?

Not saying they pulled the plug for sure, but the first three beers in the series have been released in the Twin Cities. I'd be pretty pissed if I paid for their project and saw the same beers show up for regular purchase.

http://www.blacklistbrewing.com/
Click to expand...
The fact that their beer is icky doesn't help, either.
 
Arbitrator said:
Low-hanging fruit, but based on their beers that I've had, Night **** IMO.
Click to expand...

pjl44 said:
To your point, while I appreciate the Night Shift model more, quality is the problem in their case. If they were pumping out top notch stuff, I'd be shelling out the dough for that right along with you. Alas, I've had enough of their lineup to know to stay far far away from that barrel society.
Click to expand...

It's a shame because they're really good guys, and (IMO) their Berliners are great. But they're just trying to brew a trillion different kinds of beers, and the only thing they've done really well so far are the berliners, yet for some reason they're brewing 100% brett clausseni rye beers aged in brandy barrels, maple syrup barleywines aged in rum barrels, white wine barrel double IPAs, etc etc etc., and releasing them despite the fact some of them are really quite bad.

Of course, people buy everything they make because they have great social media presence and branding, so I guess they're getting positive reinforcement. I am glad they're doing well, professionally, and I'm glad I helped provide them some seed money to expand, but I will not be buying any more of their beer, save berliners, until they start putting out a more consistent product.
 
pjl44 said:
That was certainly one I was referencing. I can get a discount for buying in bulk from most stores and I'm not limiting myself to one brewery. Just don't like the idea of them asking for a chunk of money up front for stuff I can wander in and buy off the shelf if I feel like it.
Click to expand...

I guess I just don't understand this. They're not "asking" you for anything - it's not a Kickstarter. They're offering it as a product, and if you don't want to buy it, you don't have to (and it's not going to affect their production if you don't, because they're making the beer anyway!). Moreover, as far as I'm aware, every single beer they're offering will be available to the public - so if you don't want to join the society, say, because you're unconvinced of the beer quality, you can still pick up any release that interests you off the shelf.

It's just there as an offering for someone who knows they want all of the beer, likes the brewery, and is happy to support them by offering the money up front. I'm not joining, because I know I don't want all of this beer, and I can still get whatever I do want!

Again, I see this as pretty clearly contrasting with every other society I've ever seen (except, I guess, Collected Works, but that's different for a lot of reasons), because it's not "exclusive" or anything like other societies, like Night Shift's, where you're essentially betting on the quality up front in order to have access to beer that other people can't get. That's way, WAY more objectionable to me.

EDIT: They even allude directly to this!

If you know you’re inclined to buy all of our beers, this is a great deal.
Click to expand...
 
Dunt said:
Outside of Crooked Stave, I don't think there is one reserve society I wish I was in
Click to expand...

this is how i felt until i learned about SARA's cellar which i feel lucky to have gotten into. de garde's seems cool too. but yeah, being in CS and SARA is just perfect for me.
 
grandmeaulnes said:
this is how i felt until i learned about SARA's cellar which i feel lucky to have gotten into. de garde's seems cool too.
Click to expand...

Didnt even know SARA did one, I would've tried getting into that. De Garde seems good for the price, but I havent had a beer of theirs yet and the logistics of getting the beer to Chicago seems like a nightmare for me.
 

Similar threads

P
What happened to IPA?
2
Replies
49
Views
3K
Clint Yeastwood
Clint Yeastwood
Brit the !@#$
New Apple Orchardist Member Looking to Develop Graf Recipe Using Cider Syrup
Replies
16
Views
886
madscientist451
madscientist451
3 Dawg Night
FotHB XIX: Legal to Drink in Canada
2 3
Replies
86
Views
3K
3 Dawg Night
3 Dawg Night
B
Iowa Bottoms Up Beer Dispensers - Used, Untested - $100
Replies
3
Views
756
Bryce Brewer
B
T
FotHB XVIII: In Memory of @aharri1 [RIP]
2 3 4
Replies
132
Views
7K
RCope
RCope
CornyKegs 300

Latest posts

Back
Top