Asking the experts: lighter "sours", gose/berliner/etc

[ridglens]

I'm really new at these lighter "sours", specifically gose and berliners...

I'm not really looking to age a bunch, but who's got experience on relative shelf-life and freshness? I'm assuming they are reasonably stable, but not sure...

Anyway, are they like IPAs in that i need to drink them fresh and they'll fade? or more like lambic in that they'll develop over time?

cheers!

 

[biglobo8971]

I havent experienced a huge fade, (like the IPA's that you speak of), but they do fade IMHO.

 

[Der Fuchs]

most of the berliners or gose i have aged started falling off around 6 months. they still remained good, but not as good as they were fresh.

 

[falc0n26001]

Westbrook Gose says "Drink within 3 months" on it.

 

[tehzachatak]

I'm really new at these lighter "sours", specifically gose and berliners...

I'm not really looking to age a bunch, but who's got experience on relative shelf-life and freshness? I'm assuming they are reasonably stable, but not sure...

Anyway, are they like IPAs in that i need to drink them fresh and they'll fade? or more like lambic in that they'll develop over time?

cheers!

I have never met a fruited berliner I liked better tomorrow than today. If that helps. The fruit can fade fast (doesn't in all cases, but better safe than sorry, dome that ***** now)

 

[mixed_master7]

I wouldn't ever age Gose.

Berliner Weisse, depending on how the base is to begin with could benefit, maybe. I tend to like Berliners without that cheesy smell so I wonder if that might go away after some time and clean up a bit.

 

[ridglens]

Sounds like better fresh than not, but not quite like hopslam. Thank y'all, I'll drink up!

 

[sacrelicio]

ISO Sours

 

[SSTroller]

most of the berliners or gose i have aged started falling off around 6 months. they still remained good, but not as good as they were fresh.

Just did a side by side last night with last years NG Berliner and this years. The fresh one was incredibly better, granted I think I read Dan Carey changed the recipe between the two, but last year's was not as good as I remember it. Was missing that brightness and the tartness faded quite a bit.

 

[ridglens]

Just did a side by side last night with last years NG Berliner and this years. The fresh one was incredibly better, granted I think I read Dan Carey changed the recipe between the two, but last year's was not as good as I remember it. Was missing that brightness and the tartness faded quite a bit.

cool, thanks for that. truth is i'm grabbing a couple cases of Gose this weekend (hopefully), and just wanted to make sure if i enjoy them over the next couple months i'll be ok. sounds like it!

 

[SSTroller]

cool, thanks for that. truth is i'm grabbing a couple cases of Gose this weekend (hopefully), and just wanted to make sure if i enjoy them over the next couple months i'll be ok. sounds like it!

Yeah I remember last year's berliner stayed great throughout summer and into the Fall. You should be good!

 

[falc0n26001]

I think Brett acts as a preservative of sorts, which is what these lighters sours are all lacking. I am having a great time reading American Sour Beers and it has a lot of cool information on this sort of stuff: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1938469119/?tag=talkbecom09-20

 

[Der Fuchs]

Just did a side by side last night with last years NG Berliner and this years. The fresh one was incredibly better, granted I think I read Dan Carey changed the recipe between the two, but last year's was not as good as I remember it. Was missing that brightness and the tartness faded quite a bit.

i agree, that was one of the berliners i had aged along with jackie o's, white birch, berliner kindle, and prof franz. every one of them was better fresh.

 

[beerandraiderfan]

I swear I don't do this **** just to be the counter culture guy.

I buy 1-2 cases of Hottenroth a year. The majority of which, I drink at the 1-2 year mark. Honestly, I don't find much difference between them fresh, 1 or 2 years old. I do have a super old Hottenroth with the plain crown (pre-Bruery branded crowns like back in the piapt/black orchard days) that I look forward to cracking one of these days.

I also did a side by side of NG berw last week. I liked the 2013 better by a hair. Now here's where it gets real weird.

My dad said the NG '14 tastes like "ham". They give those BJCP credentials out to anybody I guess.

 

[stupac2]

I swear I don't do this **** just to be the counter culture guy.

I buy 1-2 cases of Hottenroth a year. The majority of which, I drink at the 1-2 year mark. Honestly, I don't find much difference between them fresh, 1 or 2 years old. I do have a super old Hottenroth with the plain crown (pre-Bruery branded crowns like back in the piapt/black orchard days) that I look forward to cracking one of these days.

I also did a side by side of NG berw last week. I liked the 2013 better by a hair. Now here's where it gets real weird.

My dad said the NG '14 tastes like "ham". They give those BJCP credentials out to anybody I guess.

Berliners can taste meaty. The first batch of Maiden Fields had some serious ham flavors.

Also, this question seems like it was meant for stakem.

 

[davey101]

I can't even imagine holding onto a gose/berliner for that long.

 

[beerandraiderfan]

Berliners can taste meaty. The first batch of Maiden Fields had some serious ham flavors.

Also, this question seems like it was meant for stakem.

Yeah, he prolly read that somewhere and ran with it. I can see a lot of subjective variation in what we perceive taste wise, but I just cannot under any circumstances, see how someone could get ham out of New Glarus berlinerweisse.

In some of the smoked ones (gatzer or gratzer or something)? Sure, I could see that, smoke, ham, those can be confused, like how the smell of a charcoal and lighter fluid makes me think steak. hmmm. . . berliner makes think stakem. . .ah wordplay.

 

[stakem1]

It seems this discussion is going in different directions... to reply to your original post, yes I believe they are very shelf stable. Their development as a cellar candidate is kinda questionable though depending on what your intention is. In my opinion, I dont believe they age in the sense that they have drastic character development or get more sour (unless brett is only introduced at bottling time.) I think batch variation is more of a variable that plays into our perception more than we give credit to.

Ive drank schultheiss berliners that were very geuze-like but on the contrary I wasnt able to drink them fresh to know if they were like that to begin with or if aging played that much of an amazing benefit to them. The same beer at 30+ years old seemed watered down and a shadow of it's younger self. But does aging something that long throw too many variables into the equation?

Im in the camp that fruited berliners should be drank fresh if you are looking to enjoy the fruit character in its prime. However, Dieu de ciel does that raspberry version that ages like a champ. I had a bottle of that 4+ years old that smelled/tasted brighter and fresher than nearly any other raspberry beer ive ever had.

Just because im a dick, ill throw out some conflucting examples of berliners ive drank both fresh and aged.
Nebco Weisse trash culture - liked it fresh, hated it 6+ months out, loved it just a couple weeks ago
fritz 1809 - different every time i drink it
baynof berliner (not lambicus edition) - great fresh and up to a year - then it almost seems like it gets dull and weird
southampto uberliner - a mess when it was fresh, every bottle ive opened since has been consistently better

 

[Dpaquet]

Dieu de ciel does that raspberry version that ages like a champ. I had a bottle of that 4+ years old that smelled/tasted brighter and fresher than nearly any other raspberry beer ive ever had.

I had one that was at least one year old and i have to agree with you. It was super bright, raspberries were still super fresh. I now keep a couple for next year.

 

[drgarage1]

In addition to continuing to eat more sugars (including complex ones) over time, brett can fight off oxidation to various degrees, which can make it a preservative as well as a continually evolving ingredient. Historical berliners almost certainly had brett. I just wish Bahnhof would remake the Lambicus berliner so I could buy a case to age -- that beer has interesting potential.

 

[Dpaquet]

In addition to continuing to eat more sugars (including complex ones) over time, brett can fight off oxidation to various degrees, which can make it a preservative as well as a continually evolving ingredient. Historical berliners almost certainly had brett. I just wish Bahnhof would remake the Lambicus berliner so I could buy a case to age -- that beer has interesting potential.

Is it really the Brett that acts as a preservative or more the fact that while continuing to ferment in the bottle, it produce Co2 that keeps the oxygen out of the bottle? I am thinking probably both but i am curios to know what other people think.

 

[Dpaquet]

Also, if you can read french, here is an article on two berliners that where drank after 30yrs. To resume everything, both were not bad at all. They also say that lactic acid helps stabilize the elements (preserve in other words) just like in sauerkraut.

http://lescoureursdesboires.blogspot.ca/2012/01/lhistoire-miraculeuse-de-deux-bieres-3.html

 

[falc0n26001]

Is it really the Brett that acts as a preservative or more the fact that while continuing to ferment in the bottle, it produce Co2 that keeps the oxygen out of the bottle? I am thinking probably both but i am curios to know what other people think.

I know that Brett also helps preserve hop aroma/flavor for a much longer period than if there were no Brett. Source: American Sour Beers (awesome new book).

 

[drgarage1]

Is it really the Brett that acts as a preservative or more the fact that while continuing to ferment in the bottle, it produce Co2 that keeps the oxygen out of the bottle? I am thinking probably both but i am curios to know what other people think.

I believe it's actually eats oxygen to make CO2, even after reaching a largely anaerobic stage of metabolism. It also produces phenolics, which are also antioxidative.

 

[ncaudle]

Is it really the Brett that acts as a preservative or more the fact that while continuing to ferment in the bottle, it produce Co2 that keeps the oxygen out of the bottle? I am thinking probably both but i am curios to know what other people think.

brett consumes oxygen and creates acid. if there is too much oxygen then it will create more acetic acid though