Brett Fermentation Time/Length

[phishwhalez]

I just brewed a Belgian Pale/Blonde/Saison with Wyeast 3522 Ardennes, and I pitched some Brett and I am assuming Bacteria from some Prairie Bottles (Elizabeth and Funky Gold Amarillo). I am not looking for a sour beer, just a bit of funk and maybe tartness.

My experience with Brett before was letting it ride for 8 weeks with Brett Tois (so not really Brett) and I used Brett Brux with a Saison but let that ride for about 6 months.

How should I be looking to wait for the Brett to do its work? Is it safe to start taking gravity readings after 4-6 weeks to see if its finished, or am I looking at a few months? Thanks all!

 

[abawol01]

I go a minimum of three months with brett. Never gone less so I can't help you there. Three months seems to be about when the brett is getting close to done. YMMV

 

[FTowne1]

I brewed a saison, spiked it with Jolly Pumpkin dregs in the primary and it was at 1.004 after 3 weeks. Bottled it at one month, and now after sitting in bottles for roughly 2 months its super dry and bretty.

 

[phishwhalez]

I brewed a saison, spiked it with Jolly Pumpkin dregs in the primary and it was at 1.004 after 3 weeks. Bottled it at one month, and now after sitting in bottles for roughly 2 months its super dry and bretty.

I was looking at your blog and noticed that you often bottle after about a month. That is kind of what sparked my question. I guess I will check at around 4 and them 5 weeks to see if gravity changes.

 

[FTowne1]

I was looking at your blog and noticed that you often bottle after about a month. That is kind of what sparked my question. I guess I will check at around 4 and them 5 weeks to see if gravity changes.

I know it's not the popular way to brew saisons, but so far I've had good luck bottling at around a month after primary and then bottle conditioning for another month or so.

 

[Snarf1]

I was looking at your blog and noticed that you often bottle after about a month. That is kind of what sparked my question. I guess I will check at around 4 and them 5 weeks to see if gravity changes.

FTowne blog?

 

[FTowne1]

FTowne blog?

I didn't realize he wrote that.



Here's a link:


























dontdrinkbeer.com

 

[FTowne1]

I have so thick oOval glasses stored up so that may be the route I got, maybe hold on a bit longer to 6 weeks.

As long as your gravity is stable and you don't overdo the priming sugar you'll be fine.

 

[phishwhalez]

I didn't realize he wrote that.



Here's a link:


























dontdrinkbeer.com

Really informative and thoughtful stuff here lol. Love dontdrinkbeer.

 

[Snarf1]

I didn't realize he wrote that.



Here's a link:


























dontdrinkbeer.com

 

[phishwhalez]

don'tdrinkbeer > ftowne

 

[Five28 hz]

don'tdrinkbeer > ftowne

No.

 

[phishwhalez]

No.

Was a joke a joke a jooooookkkeeeee. Both a great and very different blogs.

 

[FTowne1]

Was a joke a joke a jooooookkkeeeee. Both a great and very different blogs.

WHAT BLOG ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Srs. I've never written a blog in my life, unless you're talking about the random thoughts thread.

 

[cneville1]

WHAT BLOG ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Srs. I've never written a blog in my life, unless you're talking about the random thoughts thread.

haha i wonder if phishwhalez is talking about Thorpe429's blog. if so, i'm going to need some of your homebrew pronto.

 

[drgarage1]

Main thing is stable gravity and taste. If it's below 1.008 or so, it's safe to bottle, and I like to taste a little brett in it, or a balance of brett and any other yeasts involved, before I bottle. Either way, the longer period of time is usually from bottling time until it tastes good. My brett beers tend to carb up within two or three days and never get much more carbonated than that, but the flavor, mouthfeel, and aromas continue to change and evolve for months and months. Which can be frustrating. Or fun, depending on if it started out good.

 

[Thorpe]

Thanks to cneville for alerting me to this thread. I do almost exclusively Brett saisons (definitely at least a bit of bacteria in there as well; I've intentionally added it, use scratched buckets, and don't sanitize very well) and I normally bottle around 4-5 weeks. Not sure if this would have been my blog someone was referencing though, as I'm often terrible about going back to do bottle/keg dates.

With the culture I have, I generally see gravity as 1.002 or less after 4 weeks, so I normally just prime to where I want it to be with sugar or fruit juice. With clean saisons that then get dosed with Brett, I assume it's going to go down to at least 1.002 and will generally wait that long, but if not, would probably bottle using the rule that each additional half degree Plato will be another volume of CO2.

However, when I have added Brett to clean saisons, I've generally done it in bulk under a bit of pressure in a corny, and then I bottle from there after fermentation is complete. That creates its own guesswork, though, as generally there's carbonation created unless I remember to keep purging the keg and/or use a keg that doesn't seal perfectly.

 

[phishwhalez]

haha i wonder if phishwhalez is talking about Thorpe429's blog. if so, i'm going to need some of your homebrew pronto.

This is a very embarrassing introduction to the talk beer homebrew threads. I may never return...

EDIT: But thanks for all the helpful information everyone!!

 

[FTowne1]

This is a very embarrassing introduction to the talk beer homebrew threads. I may never return...

EDIT: But thanks for all the helpful information everyone!!

Haha. No worries. Stick around! It's always nice to have more people in this area of the site.

 

[TheMurdawg]

i can't ever seem to get the brett character I want in my saisons no matter the strain. Generally I am pitching along with Sacch in primary and letting it go for months, some 4 and 5 months in and I am still getting mostly saison strain characteristics.

What do you guys think, should I be pitching in secondary and stressing it a bit more?

 

[FTowne1]

i can't ever seem to get the brett character I want in my saisons no matter the strain. Generally I am pitching along with Sacch in primary and letting it go for months, some 4 and 5 months in and I am still getting mostly saison strain characteristics.

What do you guys think, should I be pitching in secondary and stressing it a bit more?

Have you tried pitching bottle dregs along with your saison yeast in primary?

 

[ncaudle]

i can't ever seem to get the brett character I want in my saisons no matter the strain. Generally I am pitching along with Sacch in primary and letting it go for months, some 4 and 5 months in and I am still getting mostly saison strain characteristics.

What do you guys think, should I be pitching in secondary and stressing it a bit more?

are you referring to samples pulled from the fermenter or from bottles?

 

[TheMurdawg]

samples from carboy. I've also recently pulled from a keg that has been conditioning and just not getting the character I want. I don't want to use dregs as most I have contain bacteria as well and I'm looking for brett only.

The real question I have is what are your opinions on pitching brett strains together from start, pitching sacch and then a few days in pitching the brett or only pitching at bottling.

 

[skiofpinsk]

samples from carboy. I've also recently pulled from a keg that has been conditioning and just not getting the character I want. I don't want to use dregs as most I have contain bacteria as well and I'm looking for brett only.

The real question I have is what are your opinions on pitching brett strains together from start, pitching sacch and then a few days in pitching the brett or only pitching at bottling.

I've only brewed a couple beers where I've used brett, both of which were WLP650 Brett Brux.

The first was fermented out completely (can't recall primary yeast strain, think it was Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale) and a vial of brett was added to secondary. I didn't get the typical brett funk I was expecting, it was softer and reminded me of dark fruit/clove. I only really picked up on the brett characteristics when I brewed the second beer. Being an all brett beer I made a starter. After a few days I smelled the starter and it smelled just like my first beer. Pitched it and let the second beer ferment at ~68 deg F and condition for about 6 weeks. The 4th and 5th week I ramped the temperature up to ~75-80 deg F. Bottled and allowed to condition for a further 2 weeks. When I finally popped one, the brett was very distinct and more like the earthy funkiness I associate with brett, rather than the fruit/clove funkiness I got form the first one.

FWIW, both beers used roasted malts so perhaps that changed how the brett characteristics developed, as well as how I perceived them.

So, with my experiences in mind, I guess I would have the following questions:
- What saison strain are you using? I've used 3711 in the past and it tore through the wort, dropping the gravity close to 1.000. In this case I wouldn't think there would be a lot of material for the brett to chew on.
- What temperature are you conditioning at? I would think higher temps would produce more of the phenols we associate with brett.

 

[ncaudle]

What saison strain are you using? I've used 3711 in the past and it tore through the wort, dropping the gravity close to 1.000. In this case I wouldn't think there would be a lot of material for the brett to chew on.

I have had no issues in getting lots of brett flavors when pitched as secondary after a 3711 fermentation, but I also mash high (159f) for beers I know I'm adding brett too

 

[levifunk1]

i can't ever seem to get the brett character I want in my saisons no matter the strain. Generally I am pitching along with Sacch in primary and letting it go for months, some 4 and 5 months in and I am still getting mostly saison strain characteristics.

Saison strains are the worst strains for making saisons.

Try using a cleaner sacch strain, or removing it all together.

 

[FTowne1]

Saison strains are the worst strains for making saisons.

Try using a cleaner sacch strain, or removing it all together.

 

[quirkzoo1]

Saison strains are the worst strains for making saisons.

Try using a cleaner sacch strain, or removing it all together.

Not sure if serious.

Can I get a little bit more on what you mean by this?

Seems like it depends a lot on what you are going for, but from my perspective all the most desired saisons (american and belgian) use a saison strain of some sort?

What do you see as the advantage of using a cleaner sacch strain? Are you talking about this only in the context of adding brett later?

Lastly, what you are saying is in direct contradiction to most of what I have heard which is that most of what we consider "brett characteristics" is Brett metabolizing various ester compounds from a sacch fermentation and therefore you want a sacch strain that throws of more of these esters.

 

[levifunk1]

Not sure if serious.

Can I get a little bit more on what you mean by this?

Seems like it depends a lot on what you are going for, but from my perspective all the most desired saisons (american and belgian) use a saison strain of some sort?

What do you see as the advantage of using a cleaner sacch strain? Are you talking about this only in the context of adding brett later?

Lastly, what you are saying is in direct contradiction to most of what I have heard which is that most of what we consider "brett characteristics" is Brett metabolizing various ester compounds from a sacch fermentation and therefore you want a sacch strain that throws of more of these esters.

That statement would be mostly from personal preference. I hate normal saisons. Can't stand clove flavor or any spice flavor really. yuk. But, I LOVE these new american saisons.

TheMurdawg sounds like he is going for the new american ones, which don't have the traditional saison strains in them. Using a clean sacch strain, and by that I mean one that doesn't create a lot of flavor (I'd probably try wine strains), would provide some competition for the Brett strains and yield more character from you brett strain selection.

 

[quirkzoo1]

That statement would be mostly from personal preference. I hate normal saisons. Can't stand clove flavor or any spice flavor really. yuk. But, I LOVE these new american saisons.

TheMurdawg sounds like he is going for the new american ones, which don't have the traditional saison strains in them. Using a clean sacch strain, and by that I mean one that doesn't create a lot of flavor (I'd probably try wine strains), would provide some competition for the Brett strains and yield more character from you brett strain selection.

Fair enough, I agree that any clove can ruin a beer.

edit: ncaudle fixed it for me.

 

[ncaudle]

Fair enough, I agree that any clove can ruin a beer.

FTFY

 

[TheMurdawg]

levifunk what strain's would you use that are "clean?" I hate clove as well. I do like Saisons, the clean ones like Dupont and Blaugies and also the new American ones (Hill Farm, Side Proj, Prairie, crooked stave etc).

Are you also referring to 100% Brett Ferm with Saison grist, that I do quite a bit and enjoy

 

[levifunk1]

levifunk what strain's would you use that are "clean?" I hate clove as well. I do like Saisons, the clean ones like Dupont and Blaugies and also the new American ones (Hill Farm, Side Proj, Prairie, crooked stave etc).

Are you also referring to 100% Brett Ferm with Saison grist, that I do quite a bit and enjoy

I'm really not the person to ask about this. I've never done a saison. If I were to do one, I'd pick a wine strain of sacch or like a US-05. That'd become your base and then start experimenting with brett strains and mixes. Or yea, just cut the sacch out completely and do a 100% brett ferm on a saison grist. I think you'd have better results with a sacch strain mixed in there though.

 

[ncaudle]

I hate clove as well. I do like Saisons, the clean ones like Dupont

um, what?!

 

[Minnesotaryan]

don'tdrinkbeer > ftowne

 

[TheMurdawg]

ncaudle I don't get clove in Dupont at all, some are more sensitive to it than others I guess. Its a beer that's dry, spicy, a bit musty and I get light citrus and some pepper spice from but thats not to say you are wrong in what you taste or smell.

 

[phishwhalez]

Madfermentionist article on yeast strain with brett followed by the tasting here 4 months later and some results

I think he comes to the conclusion Belgian strain will produce more funk, but not as much as expected.

 

[TripleSixHoppia]

I think he comes to the conclusion Belgian strain will produce more funk, but not as much as expected.

Brett will eat phenols produced by Saison strains.


TheMurdawg, ignore Levi he doesn't even brew. Your lackluster brett character more than likely due to underpitching and low temps. When I do mixed culture saisons I'm pitching at least 500ml of a mixed saison strain starter and at least 500ml of a brett starter (more than likely 2 or more strains) to 5 gallons. Pitch in the high 60s and let it ramp up to what ever it wants to go to. More than likely mid to high 70s depending on the temp of your house. I've never found under pitching to be better than giving brett a healthy pitch. Even if I add brett to secondary, I'm pitching 500ml to 1l. I've also found that bottle conditioning drives the brett flavors even more. Once you condition it you'll see a ring of yeast at the bottom of bottles. It's a pretty big yeast to beer contact ratio compared to a carboy. Champagne producers also do this to get more yeast contact and drive flavors. If you want to keg, I would naturally carbonate the keg. Add the same amount of sugar you would for botting, then wait a month. 4-6 months in bottles and my mixed brett beers are singing.

 

[Dogfishjoey]

the brewing network had chad from crooked stave on a long time ago, has a lot of good info.

 

[hornydevil]

Brett will eat phenols produced by Saison strains.

If by "eat" you mean "reduce into their ethyl form" then, yeah, Brett will eat sacch. created vinyl phenols.

, Your lackluster brett character more than likely due to underpitching and low temps.

Low fermentation temperature will certainly inhibit ester formation, but has very little, if anything, to do with phenol formation and underpitching will only lengthen the time that it takes for your yeast to get to maximum cell density. Phenolic precursors are what he needs to get more brett character.

I've also found that bottle conditioning drives the brett flavors even more. Once you condition it you'll see a ring of yeast at the bottom of bottles. It's a pretty big yeast to beer contact ratio compared to a carboy. Champagne producers also do this to get more yeast contact and drive flavors.

The reason for that is ester hydrolysis, which happens because esters break down over time, not because of the dormant yeast at the bottom of the bottle.