Dialing in IPAs

[More Betterness]

So being my favorite style, I've brewed more ipas than any other beer, but have yet to brew one that I've been completely happy with. I've made plenty of "good" ipas, but havent really nailed one despite multiple technical adjustments and procedural changes.

The biggest issue is a dull/muddled hop aroma and flavor. Hop aroma and flavor are very apparent in our beer, but lack the brightness and clarity apparent in commercial examples, instead coming across as monotone and muddled.

We are building water from scratch to style, using fresh vacuum sealed hops, are heavily hop standing and dry hopping, and after a healthy fermentation purge everything the beer touches with CO2 (Dry hop in purged keg, and transfer to purged serving keg under pressure). The only thing we haven't done is start monitoring ph (thought our water adjustment would keep it in line) so will more than likely give that a go next brew.

Anyways, was wondering if you guys had advice regarding ph targets in the mash, sparge, boil, and finished beer for IPAs specifically? Also if there is any other part of the process that we are missing that could be detrimental to the beer?

Sick of brewing great beer in every other style we try and having such issues with IPAs!

 

[FTowne1]

Subscribed.

 

[TheMurdawg]

Ideas I got from elsewhere on inter-webs recently that have some validity.

Shaun Hill has been saying for a few years now that chloride may be more important in water profiles for hoppy beers than most people realize. The general consensus for years now has been to bump up your calcium and sulfate in your IPA's water, with no mention at all of chloride.

Some mention dry hopping twice, once when almost done with primary, maybe .002 off final grav and then again once hit terminal. There are varying schools of thought on when to crash etc. Also, what about yeast strain? Cal Ale, Conan? I want to try London Ale III.

Just some things I have lifted elsewhere, haven't tried messing with water etc...yet.

 

[TheMurdawg]

one more point, the drier the beer generally the more hop character I tend to get . i don't brew IPA often but when I do I use Pils, Wheat, oats and that's it. Let the hops shine.

 

[Sage1]

rcubed

 

[quirkzoo1]

one more point, the drier the beer generally the more hop character I tend to get . i don't brew IPA often but when I do I use Pils, Wheat, oats and that's it. Let the hops shine.

This makes me think that perhaps a sample recipe and some dates, schedules and og/fg readings might help.

 

[More Betterness]

I'll definitely post a few sample recipes/notes when I get home.

All my IPAs finish dry 1.012 down to 1.008 on a few. Usually use a bit of simple sugar to ensure they dry out. As for yeast have used Cal Ale, English Ale, Dry English Ale, and Conan (best ipa I brewed). Always at least a double dry hop, with the first one usually happening at the end of primary.

 

[More Betterness]

As for water, have gone both the "vinnie" route of high sulfate/calcium, but have recently moved more towards higher levels of chloride and moderate sulfate. I dig the softer mouthfeel and less aggressive bitterness.

 

[TomTwanks1]

Brewing a double IPA tomorrow with an absurd amount of Citra. I'm messing with the water and adding 1 tsp of gypsum (along with the usually Camden/Whirlfloc/yeast nutrient additions). I've heard it helps the hops to be showcased. Anyone have experiences with gypsum?

In b4 have your water tested blah blah blah. It's good quality tap water...

 

[rcubed1]

A lot to talk about this. Water, hops, malt, yeast - all big factors in this style.

Oxygen is your enemy but is sounds like you know this.

Post a recipe with your procedure and maybe we can provide better help.

 

[spacecoyote]

If you haven't already, read Mitch Steele's "IPA" book. It is without a doubt the best current single publication on upping your IPA-game.

 

[More Betterness]

Here's the last IPA we brewed with a "Vermont" water profile:

Water:
12.35 Gallons distilled, adjusted with salts to:

70 ppm SO4
77 ppm Ca
33 Na
146 Cl
2 Mg

6.5 Gallons
1.076 OG
85 IBUs
4.8 SRM
1.013 FG
8.3%

Mash w/6.15 gallons @ 149 for 75 minutes.
90% 2 Row
4.5% Crystal 20
5.5% Corn Sugar (Added when fermentation begins to slow)

Fly Sparge w/ 6.2 Gallons @165 for ~ 45 minutes until pre boil volume is reached.

90 Minute Boil
1.5 oz Warrior @ 90
1 oz Columbus @ 30
15 minute hopstand @ 0 with:
2 oz Centennial
2 oz Simcoe
1 oz Chinook

Chilled to 62

Fermented with a 3L starter of Conan cultured and stepped up from a few cans of Heady.

Added 1 pound Corn sugar @ 3 days into fermentation when it visibly began to slow.

6 days into fermentation with gravity @ 1.016 dry hopped with:
2 oz Simcoe
1 oz Chinook
0.5 oz Centennial

11 days in primary: Gravity @ 1.013, racked into CO2 purged keg with a stainless steel screen over the diptube onto:
2 oz Simcoe
1 oz Chinook
0.5 oz Centennial

After 4 days transferred under pressure into CO2 purged serving keg through the outpost.

Left at 35 degrees under 14 PSI to condition/ Force carb. Served a week later.

Sorry for the jumbled formatting!

 

[SirDickButts]

you're gonna need way more time if you're dry hopping @ kegging temps.
it takes about 3 weeks to get that aroma out the keg.
or...you can let the keg sit out (purged of course) @ room temp for 7 days, then carb @ kegging temp.

EDIT: as far as clarity, i guess it depends on how you're dialing in your water profile. also, a quick cold break really helps.
the water in Houston is REALLY hard and the sulfate:chloride is neck and neck (44:45).
i have to dilute the tap water 70% with distilled water, add in calcium chloride and gyspum to get my sulfate:chloride and calcium in the right range. i usually nail a PH of 5.2 and 5.4.

download bru'n water.
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

this has helped me a lot with dialing in PH and salt additions.

 

[More Betterness]

you're gonna need way more time if you're dry hopping @ kegging temps.
it takes about 3 weeks to get that aroma out the keg.
or...you can let the keg sit out (purged of course) @ room temp for 7 days, then carb @ kegging temp.

EDIT: as far as clarity, i guess it depends on how you're dialing in your water profile. also, a quick cold break really helps.
the water in Houston is REALLY hard and the sulfate:chloride is neck and neck (44:45).
i have to dilute the tap water 70% with distilled water, add in calcium chloride and gyspum to get my sulfate:chloride and calcium in the right range. i usually nail a PH of 5.2 and 5.4.

download bru'n water.
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

this has helped me a lot with dialing in PH and salt additions.

I didn't make that clear enough.. My bad. The dry hop keg is sitting for 4 or 5 days at room temps.

Also when I said clarity I meant in regards to flavor/aroma. Mine usually comes across too muddled rather than the "bright" character I get from commercial examples.

Per what you said I think really dialing in my ph is my biggest issue. Downloading bru'n water as I type this.

 

[rcubed1]

You're going to get different dry-hop character when you add hops into active fermentation. Good be bad or good. I usually don't start dry-hopping until I'm 10-14 days into fermentation. If you're going to dry-hop in the keg, you might want to transfer over to another keg once you get your desired character.

Also why do you have 30 minute hop addition? What are you trying to get from that? A really healthy dose of hops at 10 minutes will get you a lot of hop flavor.

I don't like that much crystal malt in my DIPAs but that's me. You get a lot of sweetness from the alcohol alone when you're going over 8%.

I'm not sure on the water. I just use filtered water for mine.

 

[More Betterness]

You're going to get different dry-hop character when you add hops into active fermentation. Good be bad or good. I usually don't start dry-hopping until I'm 10-14 days into fermentation. If you're going to dry-hop in the keg, you might want to transfer over to another keg once you get your desired character.

Also why do you have 30 minute hop addition? What are you trying to get from that? A really healthy dose of hops at 10 minutes will get you a lot of hop flavor.

I don't like that much crystal malt in my DIPAs but that's me. You get a lot of sweetness from the alcohol alone when you're going over 8%.

I'm not sure on the water. I just use filtered water for mine.

Always double dry hop. First at the tail end of fermentation second in a purged keg at room temps, then transfer into a purged serving keg under pressure.

I typically don't use that much Crystal either, just happens to be a little heavier in that recipe. That being said that was the best IPA I've made.

 

[SirDickButts]

I didn't make that clear enough.. My bad. The dry hop keg is sitting for 4 or 5 days at room temps.

Also when I said clarity I meant in regards to flavor/aroma. Mine usually comes across too muddled rather than the "bright" character I get from commercial examples.

Per what you said I think really dialing in my ph is my biggest issue. Downloading bru'n water as I type this.

bru'n water is a good tool! not only does it dial in your PH, water profile and salt additions...
it also shows how your grain bill affects the PH as well. it taught me how to write/shape my grain bills around my water...

 

[Thorpe]

Definitely try monitoring mash pH, keeping toward bottom of range. I generally stick with saisons, but in hoppy saisons 5.2-5.3 has worked really well. Crisp, really clean beer with smooth bitterness at 40-50 IBUs. Take a look at benefits of lower mash pH here: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing

Looks like you have done this, but I definitely prefer/recommend pushing chloride levels as high as sulfate, and probably higher as you have done when dealing with higher-IBU beers.

 

[More Betterness]

Definitely try monitoring mash pH, keeping toward bottom of range. I generally stick with saisons, but in hoppy saisons 5.2-5.3 has worked really well. Crisp, really clean beer with smooth bitterness at 40-50 IBUs. Take a look at benefits of lower mash pH here: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_pH_affects_brewing

Looks like you have done this, but I definitely prefer/recommend pushing chloride levels as high as sulfate, and probably higher as you have done when dealing with higher-IBU beers.

I'm starting to think ph might be my missing link.
http://www.hoptomology.com/2013/07/15/the-effect-of-ph-on-hop-character-the-results/

The descriptors of the "high ph" beer in this guy's experiment pretty much echo my own concerns. Gonna have to give a lower ph a go!

Love your blog by the way! It's inspired many of my saison recipes.

 

[Thorpe]

I'm starting to think ph might be my missing link.
http://www.hoptomology.com/2013/07/15/the-effect-of-ph-on-hop-character-the-results/

The descriptors of the "high ph" beer in this guy's experiment pretty much echo my own concerns. Gonna have to give a lower ph a go!

Love your blog by the way! It's inspired many of my saison recipes.

Let us know how it goes! And I will have to check out that link, don't think I've read that before. I definitely do mostly saisons, but people want hoppy beers so I may need to do that soon, especially since I've never tried Conan. Still, it'll be a 20-gallon batch and I'll thrn 15 gallons of that into hoppy saison

Thanks for reading the blog!

 

[Rau711]

The 30 minute Hop addition is a huge area for debate. A lot of people say it is useless, While Matt Brynildson at Firestone uses an exclusive 90-30-0 hop schedule.

Same goes for Dry hopping during fermentation. Many brewers stay away, while Firestone and Kern River off the top of my head start with it going to let the yeast eat the O2 added to the tank while adding dry hops.

AS for my experience I was having issues of IPAs falling off fast and becoming muddled. My issue was with bottle conditioning, once I started kegging a lot of those went away. I didn't get too into water chemistry or anything fancy, but I found once I solved my issue the hop schedule and dry hopping start times didn't have a negative effect on my beers.

For the record I love late kettle hop additions (FWH, 60, 15, 5, 0 is my favorite) and I do 1 dry hop after fermentation is done.

 

[More Betterness]

The 30 minute Hop addition is a huge area for debate. A lot of people say it is useless, While Matt Brynildson at Firestone uses an exclusive 90-30-0 hop schedule.

Same goes for Dry hopping during fermentation. Many brewers stay away, while Firestone and Kern River off the top of my head start with it going to let the yeast eat the O2 added to the tank while adding dry hops.

AS for my experience I was having issues of IPAs falling off fast and becoming muddled. My issue was with bottle conditioning, once I started kegging a lot of those went away. I didn't get too into water chemistry or anything fancy, but I found once I solved my issue the hop schedule and dry hopping start times didn't have a negative effect on my beers.

For the record I love late kettle hop additions (FWH, 60, 15, 5, 0 is my favorite) and I do 1 dry hop after fermentation is done.

I know vinnie is a proponent of the 30 minute addition as well. Different strokes I guess!

 

[rcubed1]

I either want bitterness or aroma/flavor. To me 30 minutes doesn't get you a whole lot of either.

 

[More Betterness]

I either want bitterness or aroma/flavor. To me 30 minutes doesn't get you a whole lot of either.

I never put a 30 minute addition into recipes I create, but will if I'm following an established recipe that includes one (like the one I posted earlier). It's an inefficient addition, but I would imagine that there's slightly different reactions at 30 than at other points in the boil. I seem to remember Brynildson mentioning something along the lines of "layering" flavors/bitterness?

 

[Rau711]

I either want bitterness or aroma/flavor. To me 30 minutes doesn't get you a whole lot of either.

Just to counter point, I also do't like the 30 minute addition, If a world renoun hop chemist, Matt Brynildson, uses the 30 minute addition, there might be something there. Maybe it is only on the commercial scale, but there might be something behind it.

 

[SirDickButts]

i think its just a matter of personal preference. im more of a 60, 15, 5 and 0 guy myself. anyone used hop shots before?

 

[More Betterness]

i think its just a matter of personal preference. im more of a 60, 15, 5 and 0 guy myself. anyone used hop shots before?

I have. Very smooth/less aggressive bitterness compared to using actual hops. Its great to eliminate the extra vegetal matter from the first hop addition in the kettle!

 

[Rau711]

i think its just a matter of personal preference. im more of a 60, 15, 5 and 0 guy myself. anyone used hop shots before?

Kinda my point. Everyone and every system is different, find your happy place.

 

[rcubed1]

The professional side is completely different than homebrewing once you start getting over ~10 barrels and utilize a whirlpool. Their hop utilization is much greater than ours. What I'm wondering is if they are "converting" back their times for homebrewers or if they are giving us their actual additions.

My sweet spot these days is 60, 10, WP with maybe an occasional 15 or 5 minute addition depending on the beer.

 

[Five28 hz]

My happy place for hop schedules seems to center around fwh, 15, 10, & 0 additions.

 

[ncaudle]

rarely do IPAs nowadays but when I do it's FWH, 5, F/O and dry-hopping (though I've been moving most of the hops I would have dry-hopped with to the F/O portion)

 

[user 307594]

The professional side is completely different than homebrewing once you start getting over ~10 barrels and utilize a whirlpool. Their hop utilization is much greater than ours. What I'm wondering is if they are "converting" back their times for homebrewers or if they are giving us their actual additions.

My sweet spot these days is 60, 10, WP with maybe an occasional 15 or 5 minute addition depending on the beer.

Almost certainly this. You are correct in that there is a large difference in sizes. For reference, for a 7bbl batch, I cut the flame, add my FO addition, WP for 3 minutes, let stand for 7, and start to knock out to fermenter, which takes about 30 min. The whole ~40 minutes of WP/knockout, my FO hops are in contact with the wort.

 

[More Betterness]

Bringing this one back to life!

Recently messed around with a "VT style" profile for an IPA. Per rumors that it's HFs yeast used WY 1318 and a more balanced water profile since Shaun is known to advocate more CaCl than usual.


~Water profile:
So4: 70
Cl: 140
Ca: 80
Mg: 15

Used the recipe I posted earlier in the thread w/some acid malt to hit a 5.3 mash pH. Resulted in an airy and soft mouthfeel, with a little bit of that "evaporative" finish I've experienced in the few HF IPAs I've had the pleasure of trying. Have heard similar things about Tired Hands but haven't been able to try any of their beers as of yet.

Really interesting direction for hoppy beers that I want to experiment with more. Considering some adjuncts (flaked oats) in my next IPA and maybe an even sulfate/chloride ratio. Anybody have any experience here?

 

[hornydevil]

Some really good discussion in this thread.

Really interesting direction for hoppy beers that I want to experiment with more. Considering some adjuncts (flaked oats) in my next IPA and maybe an even sulfate/chloride ratio. Anybody have any experience here?

Anybody interested in talking about the "whys?" behind brewing NEIPAs?

 

[rcubed1]

Some really good discussion in this thread.



Anybody interested in talking about the "whys?" behind brewing NEIPAs?

Quick turnaround/$$$

 

[hornydevil]

Quick turnaround/$$$

Hahaha.

Not quite the "whys" that I was hoping to discuss, but, yeah, that's pretty accurate.

More like "why use wheat?" or "why change your water profile?" or "why use certain yeast strains?".

 

[Newmoneyloons]

Hahaha.

Not quite the "whys" that I was hoping to discuss, but, yeah, that's pretty accurate.

More like "why use wheat?" or "why change your water profile?" or "why use certain yeast strains?".

 

[Vogt52]

Hahaha.

Not quite the "whys" that I was hoping to discuss, but, yeah, that's pretty accurate.

More like "why use wheat?" or "why change your water profile?" or "why use certain yeast strains?".

It seems like the palate of the consumer has evolved. A majority of people no longer want incredibly bitter beers that are really high in alcohol. People seem to like the soft mouthfeel, hop flavor without cloying bitterness and balance of malt profile.

 

[hornydevil]

I never put a 30 minute addition into recipes I create, but will if I'm following an established recipe that includes one (like the one I posted earlier). It's an inefficient addition, but I would imagine that there's slightly different reactions at 30 than at other points in the boil. I seem to remember Brynildson mentioning something along the lines of "layering" flavors/bitterness?

Just to counter point, I also do't like the 30 minute addition, If a world renoun hop chemist, Matt Brynildson, uses the 30 minute addition, there might be something there. Maybe it is only on the commercial scale, but there might be something behind it.

Wonder, specifically, what he did at Kalsec and what his background was beforehand? Organic chemistry?

Regardless, they certainly do some neat stuff with hops. https://www.kalsec.com/products/#hops

 

[rcubed1]

There's a huge difference in the timing of hop additions when you scale up to the size of FW.