Oxygen effect on sour brewing

[nanobrew1]

This seems like a great spot to debate this topic. Is oxygen good for brewing sours? How much? At which point in the process? How much if ago through the long term (such as naturally through barrels)?

 

[hornydevil]

Is oxygen good for brewing sours?

Brewing/primary fermentation? Yes. Long term aging? No.

How much?

As little as possible for long term aging.

At which point in the process?

Just the initial fermentation, as oxygen at that point is essential for quick microbe proliferation.

 

[tennispl]

Looks like this topic is settled then, shut it down!

 

[smithj21541]

I've been hearing a lot of talk on the podcasts I listen to about Brett using not only the o2 but the oxidized flavors it creates to metabolize and create new flavors. Also seems like the amount of o2 getting in during long term aging is only really bad if you have a lot of aceto-bacter (sp?) I just did an extract lambic wort and put it in a 3gl better bottle with the orange carboy hood on it as I remember hearing Jamil Z. Talking about it being a great closure for extended sour aging. I want to see about bottling it late this year.

 

[hornydevil]

I've been hearing a lot of talk on the podcasts I listen to about Brett using not only the o2 but the oxidized flavors it creates to metabolize and create new flavors.

Brettanomyces sp. certainly have the capacity to hydrolyze trans-2-nonenal (sherry/cardboard). However, the issue seems to be that if there is enough dissolved oxygen in solution, it will also create acetic acid and ethyl acetate. It's kind of a Catch-22. If you're into podcasts, I did a beer with it that was talked about on a Basic Brewing Radio episode. Can't take credit for the idea, though, as I got it from another BBR episode.

Also seems like the amount of o2 getting in during long term aging is only really bad if you have a lot of aceto-bacter (sp?)

Although acetobacter sp. certainly CAN create acetic acid in a semi-aerobic environment, a more likely candidate would be brettanomyces species, as most people don't pitch acetobacter into their beers, but they DO pitch brett.

I just did an extract lambic wort and put it in a 3gl better bottle with the orange carboy hood on it as I remember hearing Jamil Z. Talking about it being a great closure for extended sour aging. I want to see about bottling it late this year.

Care to share a recipe and technique?

 

[reverseapachemaster1]

For most sour beer production acetic acid and ethyl acetate are a problem with oxygen and brett. Somewhat of a different story if you are spontaneously fermenting or using wild cultures where you may have acetobacter and/or other unknown microbes that throw a lot of acetic acid. If you are pitching a lab blend and/or dregs from beers with lab propagated cultures then brett is your acetic acid concern.

There is a magic range of oxidation that gives nice sherry and honey flavors that gives brett things to play with and allows brett to make a little acetic acid and ethyl acetate that adds complexity to the beer. Too little oxygen and the beer can be somewhat bland while too much will produce a beer that tastes unpleasantly of vinegar and nail polish remover. For the most part typical homebrew fermentation vessels, excluding SS fermenters, plus diligent efforts to limit air exposure will get you into the right range.

 

[hornydevil]

For most sour beer production acetic acid and ethyl acetate are a problem with oxygen and brett. Somewhat of a different story if you are spontaneously fermenting or using wild cultures where you may have acetobacter and/or other unknown microbes that throw a lot of acetic acid. If you are pitching a lab blend and/or dregs from beers with lab propagated cultures then brett is your acetic acid concern.

Yep.

And with spontaneous fermentations/ambient inoculations, it's important to know that some wild sacch. species will produce high levels of ethyl acetate.

There is a magic range of oxidation that gives nice sherry and honey flavors that gives brett things to play with and allows brett to make a little acetic acid and ethyl acetate that adds complexity to the beer. Too little oxygen and the beer can be somewhat bland while too much will produce a beer that tastes unpleasantly of vinegar and nail polish remover. For the most part typical homebrew fermentation vessels, excluding SS fermenters, plus diligent efforts to limit air exposure will get you into the right range.

Still of the opinion that if you want complexity, you should get it from your recipe and fermentation technique and not rely on oxygen post-fermentation to somehow magically transform your beer.

You want more funky/brett character? Use grains that are higher in ferulic acid which is a precursor to 4VG and which brett can reduce in to 4EG. Those will get you clove, spice, and smokey. Other sources of hydroxycinnamic acids, like hops, will get you the barnyard/lanolin character for which some are looking.

You want a more ester forward beer? Use your microbes in a different order, i. e. ferment your beer BEFORE you acidify it.

The problem with not doing everything that you can to prevent any oxygen exposure is that you don't know how much is getting into your fermenter and you cannot tell how your microbes are going to respond to that level of oxygen, whatever it is. It might result in no appreciable change, but it also might result in massive off-flavors and aromas that are permanent. Thus the reason for dumping and blending beers in traditional production.

That's not even mentioning oxygen exposure during packaging, which can result in THP production. A problem that can be prevented with the addition of saccharomyces at bottling and a problem that can, and usually does, go away with enough time in the bottle, but not many people want to have cheerios flavor in their sour beer and nobody wants to drink a beer that has urine character.

TL/DNR: If I had to choose between "a little bland" and "drinking nail polish remover", I'd choose the former every time and twice on Sundays.

 

[nanobrew1]

Yep.

Still of the opinion that if you want complexity, you should get it from your recipe and fermentation technique and not rely on oxygen post-fermentation to somehow magically transform your beer.

Couldn't allowing a small amount oxygen into the aging process be considered a fermentation technique?

 

[hornydevil]

Couldn't allowing a small amount oxygen into the aging process be considered a fermentation technique?

Sure. I just look at it as a "best practices" type of thing. If someone has consistent success doing it a certain way, go for it. There are many ways to get an excellent end product.

Just figured that certain things are givens, like keeping your fermenters as clean as possible, using fresh ingredients, pitching healthy/active microbes, and keeping oxygen away from your beer as much as you can.

 

[nanobrew1]

Sure. I just look at it as a "best practices" type of thing. If someone has consistent success doing it a certain way, go for it. There are many ways to get an excellent end product.

Just figured that certain things are givens, like keeping your fermenters as clean as possible, using fresh ingredients, pitching healthy/active microbes, and keeping oxygen away from your beer as much as you can.

I think everyone can agree with that. Just as I don't think pulling a bung for a moment, whether for a dick pic or to pull a sample, will have great affect. I also don't think I need to use an autoclave to sterilize my equipment. I purge with CO2 when transferring as there is a lot of turbulence and higher contact possibility with O2, but the little things I don't find worth it, and personally, I think I make some amazing sours.

 

[hornydevil]

I think everyone can agree with that. Just as I don't think pulling a bung for a moment, whether for a dick pic or to pull a sample, will have great affect. I also don't think I need to use an autoclave to sterilize my equipment. I purge with CO2 when transferring as there is a lot of turbulence and higher contact possibility with O2, but the little things I don't find worth it, and personally, I think I make some amazing sours.

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, brah.

 

[nanobrew1]

Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, brah.

don't worry, i threw up a little in my mouth when writing that. Plus, maybe I should have written that in past tense, as it had been 16+mo since I had brewed until last month.

 

[hornydevil]

don't worry, i threw up a little in my mouth when writing that. Plus, maybe I should have written that in past tense, as it had been 16+mo since I had brewed until last month.

No worries. Just breakin' your balls, man.

Just imagine if I would have written something like that. Crucifixion.

 

[nanobrew1]

No worries. Just breakin' your balls, man.

Just imagine if I would have written something like that. Crucifixion.

I figured you meant it in jest.



p.s. My berliners only take about 6-8 weeks and I have some AWA (fruited and non) that have only taken 3-6mo, no kettle sours. Though, I do think some of my best beer are the ones I long age for 10-16mo.

 

[hornydevil]

p.s. My berliners only take about 6-8 weeks and I have some AWA (fruited and non) that have only taken 3-6mo, no kettle sours. Though, I do think some of my best beer are the ones I long age for 10-16mo.

Again, depends on the character that you're going for. Because of my technique and recipe construction, I never noticed a difference whether I bottled "early" or let them age longer. Only real difference was lower levels of ethyl acetate and I wanted to minimize that, so I started bottling everything as soon as it reached a stable terminal.

 

[smithj21541]

Brettanomyces sp. certainly have the capacity to hydrolyze trans-2-nonenal (sherry/cardboard). However, the issue seems to be that if there is enough dissolved oxygen in solution, it will also create acetic acid and ethyl acetate. It's kind of a Catch-22. If you're into podcasts, I did a beer with it that was talked about on a Basic Brewing Radio episode. Can't take credit for the idea, though, as I got it from another BBR episode.



Although acetobacter sp. certainly CAN create acetic acid in a semi-aerobic environment, a more likely candidate would be brettanomyces species, as most people don't pitch acetobacter into their beers, but they DO pitch brett.



Care to share a recipe and technique?

I'll have to look up that BBR. I've listened to a couple but not many of his yet.

I know Brett can produce those but my understanding is that it would take a lot of O2 to get that to happen.

RECIPE know change is I did Wyeast Belgian saison for a primary then transferred to the better bottle and added Wyeast Brett brux, lacrosse, and period. Each of those were individual pouches not a blend from Wyeast.

 

[reverseapachemaster1]

I know Brett can produce those but my understanding is that it would take a lot of O2 to get that to happen.

A dry airlock for a couple weeks will do it, even if there is already a pellicle.

 

[Stubs]

hornydevil you need to send me some beer for tasting science



So far, in my scientific opinion TNGabe brews the best wildish homebrew there is.

 

[Snarf1]

hornydevil you need to send me some beer for tasting science



So far, in my scientific opinion TNGabe brews the best wildish homebrew there is.

 

[Stubs]

We want your opinion on o2 buddy.

 

[Snarf1]

We want your opinion on o2 buddy.

 

[TripleSixHoppia]

There is definitely too much O2. I've been to a commercial brewery where they DOUBLE the O2 for sour beers. IDK how much O2 pickup they are getting in their packaging equipment too, but straight cardboard notes across all products.

My cultures never need O2 to ferment to complete dryness so it's not worth the risk to me.