Saison Brewing & Terminology

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Thorpe

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Going off of the saison brewing thread that was active at the end of last year, I decided to do a post on my general thoughts on saison ingredients and brewing process:

http://spontaneousfunk.blogspot.com/2015/01/saisons-farmhouse-ales-general-thoughts.html

I'm interested to get people's thoughts on this, and areas for further development. Based on some of the intro paragraphs, I'm also curious on what people's thoughts are on the use of "saison" and "farmhouse" in so many beer names and descriptions today, particularly in light of Shaun Hill bemoaning the frequent use in a recent interview with Good Beer Hunting. Are there better terms out there? Mixed fermentation? A new term/phrase?

Really, as always, I'm looking for an excuse to talk about saisons, or whatever you want to call all these beers :D
 
White text on a red and yellow background is bad decision and you should feel bad.

Blogger apparently has no good options unless you want to go white background and black text. I had requests to change the past formatting, and have no plans to do so again soon :)
 
Blogger apparently has no good options unless you want to go white background and black text. I had requests to change the past formatting, and have no plans to do so again soon :)

Just giving you a hard time. Switched safari into reader mode and I am working my way through it now.
 
Overall I think you hit a lot of the key elements of what is generally considered a "saison". I also appreciated that where you deviated from advice you had heard (i.e. sulfate additions) you gave your reasoning why you didn't follow that particular advice. I think it would be good to highlight some commercial examples of the kinds of variety you are talking about. For example you list Saison Dupont as the prototypical "clean" saison, it would be good to have those kinds of examples for all the various iterations of saison there are.
 
Overall I think you hit a lot of the key elements of what is generally considered a "saison". I also appreciated that where you deviated from advice you had heard (i.e. sulfate additions) you gave your reasoning why you didn't follow that particular advice. I think it would be good to highlight some commercial examples of the kinds of variety you are talking about. For example you list Saison Dupont as the prototypical "clean" saison, it would be good to have those kinds of examples for all the various iterations of saison there are.

Appreciate the comments. I'll have to work through a few additional examples. I got tired of gathering links :) Can definitely work on adding things like Blaugies and Jandren-Jandrenouille as clean examples that are dry and spicy (though not necessarily excessively so) and then also toward some of the more-modern American examples (plus Fantome) that really hit on Brett, wild yeast, and bacteria. Then there are also all the saison/lambic blends out there. Plenty more for the future. I had mostly used the blog for homebrew recipes/notes, but have been thinking about doing more brewery profiles and the like, if for no other reason than to have a single place to keep everything I find on brewery methods, production volumes, brewing systems, etc.
 
I have a lot of 3711 slurry on my hands and I really appreciate that you don't all ttogether dismiss it as a terrible yeast strain. It is, as you mention, on it's own, but I've had great success using it in conjunction with dregs during primary. I used it with dregs in secondary and that one was a turd.

A more in depth look at yeast strains used in farmhouse ales would be a good read, maybe one blog post per yeast strain. Also, more info on blending. iirc the THC Saison comp was a blend and that beer was amazing
 
My first few batches have fermented out quick (down to 1.006-1.003) in a matter of 3 weeks or so. I'm not set up to keg so I have to bottle everything. I've tasted some of my batches after being bottled for a couple weeks and they were pretty decent. I know that saisons can age well in proper conditions, but how much time do they need to bottle condition before they are at their prime?
 
I have a lot of 3711 slurry on my hands and I really appreciate that you don't all ttogether dismiss it as a terrible yeast strain. It is, as you mention, on it's own, but I've had great success using it in conjunction with dregs during primary. I used it with dregs in secondary and that one was a turd.

A more in depth look at yeast strains used in farmhouse ales would be a good read, maybe one blog post per yeast strain. Also, more info on blending. iirc the THC Saison comp was a blend and that beer was amazing

Yes, I know that a number of breweries (Trinity is the one that comes to mind) have worked with 3711 in conjunction with additional saison yeast (often Dupont) and/or Brett with good results. I definitely plan to go through each yeast strain available, utilizing split batches. It'll probably take me a bit of time, but I think it'd be well worth the effort.

For blending, I linked the Science & Art post. Each of those posts has at least a little bit of info on blending, but a blending overview post is something that I'd like to do. For reference, the THC Saison Comp beer was Science & Art #3.

My first few batches have fermented out quick (down to 1.006-1.003) in a matter of 3 weeks or so. I'm not set up to keg so I have to bottle everything. I've tasted some of my batches after being bottled for a couple weeks and they were pretty decent. I know that saisons can age well in proper conditions, but how much time do they need to bottle condition before they are at their prime?

Are you using Saccharomyces only, or in combination with Brett and/or other bugs? If straight Sacch., I generally like them best in the bottle after about 4 weeks once they've fully conditioned and had time to settle down a bit. For mixed fermentation beers, the timeline is highly variable and would really depend on the recipe. Happy to post thoughts if you have something specific though.
 
I definitely plan to go through each yeast strain available, utilizing split batches. It'll probably take me a bit of time, but I think it'd be well worth the effort.

I'm in the process of doing this myself (ok, not EVERY saison strain - I hate the stereotypical Dupont strain taste), as well as combos with various Brett strains.

I wonder if I may be the only person who doesn't get the overly spicy/peppery notes from 3711...
 
I'm in the process of doing this myself (ok, not EVERY saison strain - I hate the stereotypical Dupont strain taste), as well as combos with various Brett strains.

I wonder if I may be the only person who doesn't get the overly spicy/peppery notes from 3711...

I've done it once before, but unfortunately didn't take the best notes, and that was also before I think I really hit my stride brewing saisons, so it's definitely something that I plan to do again now.

I've only personally used 3711 twice, as I haven't wanted to mess around with it too much, as I've never really enjoyed commercial examples brewed with 3711. The one potential exception to this is that I believe that's what Oxbow may have started with, and I've always loved their FPA.

While I typically get a peppery, floral, earthy character from 3711 that I don't like, I have heard people talk about getting citrus notes from it.
 
I've had some success using 3711 as the small part in a blend to help strains like Dupont which tends to stall around 1.020ish. I know that Casey, SARA, and a few others use it in small amounts as well. Usually <10% in conjunction with another strain. I haven't been too happy with the 100% 3711 beers I've made mostly because it is very one dimensional and its characteristics are more prominent given the hyper-dryness of the beer it ferments to. But I think it can work well as the lesser part of a pitch. I haven't done any clean saisons in a while but I really should try out some of these new fangled strains I keep reading about. Tough to tell which ones are just rebranded versions of the classics though. YB Wallonian seems like a must try from the reviews I've read.

Great article btw!
 
I've also had some success using it to get a fermentation going quickly in lower temps. It's definitely a useful strain IMO.
 
In four years of brewing, I've brewed more "saison" than all other styles combined. A good chunk of those were 3711 too and I find it to be a very useful yeast. Great thread, I'll be sure to give it a more thorough look and post on topic later.
 
I've had some success using 3711 as the small part in a blend to help strains like Dupont which tends to stall around 1.020ish. I know that Casey, SARA, and a few others use it in small amounts as well. Usually <10% in conjunction with another strain. I haven't been too happy with the 100% 3711 beers I've made mostly because it is very one dimensional and its characteristics are more prominent given the hyper-dryness of the beer it ferments to. But I think it can work well as the lesser part of a pitch. I haven't done any clean saisons in a while but I really should try out some of these new fangled strains I keep reading about. Tough to tell which ones are just rebranded versions of the classics though. YB Wallonian seems like a must try from the reviews I've read.

Great article btw!

I don't remember exactly, but the Dec. Sour Hour podcast had Tim Clifford (SARA) on and he was saying their saison strain is either a modified or mutated 3711 pitch. I'll have to listen to it again to confirm.

edit: It's definitely not the straight wyeast culture, and I think that's the point here that most will agree with. The straight lab culture is inferior to many other commercial strains out there.
 
Agreed with everyone that it can certainly be useful in tandem with other fermenters, though I don't like it (at least what Wyeast offers) on its own. On the other hand, Thiriez makes some great beer. I've thought about culturing from a bottle of that and trying things out.
 
3711 goes pretty well with Wyeast Lambicus.

Overall, a solid piece, though I disagree that you can't go with big fruity hops with a brett-based saison. The best saison I've made was 100% Nelson, with additions roughly equivalent to an IPA, albeit mostly flame-out and dry hop additions. Everything came together nicely.
 
3711 goes pretty well with Wyeast Lambicus.

Overall, a solid piece, though I disagree that you can't go with big fruity hops with a brett-based saison. The best saison I've made was 100% Nelson, with additions roughly equivalent to an IPA, albeit mostly flame-out and dry hop additions. Everything came together nicely.

I didn't say with any Brett-based saison. Said with a phenolic yeast and funk-forward Brett. Ones I've had along those lines have always tended to clash far too much. I'm a huge fan of IPA-level hops with Brett in primary or using a fruitier strain in secondary.
 
I didn't say with any Brett-based saison. Said with a phenolic yeast and funk-forward Brett. Ones I've had along those lines have always tended to clash far too much. I'm a huge fan of IPA-level hops with Brett in primary or using a fruitier strain in secondary.
Ah, got it. That makes sense. I've still had it work out, but never with American hops. NZ or new-school German only.
 
Ah, got it. That makes sense. I've still had it work out, but never with American hops. NZ or new-school German only.

I've had good clean saisons finished with Brett that were a bit phenolic and finished with things like Nelson that have been quite good. But the Brett profiles of those have been along the lines of something like HF Juicy where it was more toward melon rather than something super funky/earthy.
 
I've had good clean saisons finished with Brett that were a bit phenolic and finished with things like Nelson that have been quite good. But the Brett profiles of those have been along the lines of something like HF Juicy where it was more toward melon rather than something super funky/earthy.

I'm fine with anything that tastes remotely close to juicy! That beer was incredible!
 
Thorpe429, I wanted to check out your recipe for Saison Faible, but it won't let me access it. Can you post the recipe here or, if you want, BM me?

Oops, should be fixed now. I accidentally pasted the URL for the page to edit that post in the blog entry. Just in case, here's the link as well: http://spontaneousfunk.blogspot.com/2014/01/farmhouse-mild-recipe-version-4.html (I know it shows up as Farmhouse Mild, think it's because I altered the name of the post after deciding to do a clean beer similar to my normal Farmhouse Mild.)
 
What are yalls thoughts on adding oak cubes to primary? Anyone else tried it? I've done it for a few batches and liked it for the most part. Adds a nice complexity but am no expert so would love to get other opinions if anyone else has tried.
 
What are yalls thoughts on adding oak cubes to primary? Anyone else tried it? I've done it for a few batches and liked it for the most part. Adds a nice complexity but am no expert so would love to get other opinions if anyone else has tried.

I've done it a few times and really liked it. I would use cubes soaked in wine and keep in primary with cubes and the bugs for about a month and then bottle.

I've been meaning to do that with most saisons until I get around to buying a barrel. The oak really does add a nice touch, as does the slight hint of wine if you go that route.
 
I've done it a few times and really liked it. I would use cubes soaked in wine and keep in primary with cubes and the bugs for about a month and then bottle.

I've been meaning to do that with most saisons until I get around to buying a barrel. The oak really does add a nice touch, as does the slight hint of wine if you go that route.
Yeah I really want to get a cheap barrel to primary in. But the cubes seem to be a good alternative. I like the soaking in wine though. Any thoughts on what kind of wine to use? Does it matter? Is cheapest okay or should I look out for certain characteristics?
 
Yeah I really want to get a cheap barrel to primary in. But the cubes seem to be a good alternative. I like the soaking in wine though. Any thoughts on what kind of wine to use? Does it matter? Is cheapest okay or should I look out for certain characteristics?

From what I've read you are better off boiling the cubes and adding them "plain" and adding fresh wine to taste at packaging. The wine will get oxidized and nasty after you open it and leave it exposed while it soaks into the oak. YMMV.
 
Yeah I really want to get a cheap barrel to primary in. But the cubes seem to be a good alternative. I like the soaking in wine though. Any thoughts on what kind of wine to use? Does it matter? Is cheapest okay or should I look out for certain characteristics?

From what I've read you are better off boiling the cubes and adding them "plain" and adding fresh wine to taste at packaging. The wine will get oxidized and nasty after you open it and leave it exposed while it soaks into the oak. YMMV.

I pre-boil the oak cubes for about 15 minutes and then soak in either white or red wine. You don't need to use the best stuff, but use something that you wouldn't mind drinking. I really like Verdejo and Sauvignon Blanc with white wines. For red, I've had success with Pinot and miscellaneous French blends. I haven't experienced any sort of oxidized character and the cubes last for many months. I keep them in 4oz mason jars filled to the top. To me, blending with wine at the end seems like cheating, though I know plenty of people do that.
 
I'm in the process of doing this myself (ok, not EVERY saison strain - I hate the stereotypical Dupont strain taste), as well as combos with various Brett strains.

I wonder if I may be the only person who doesn't get the overly spicy/peppery notes from 3711...

My best "clean" saison I've made was 100% 3711. I believe it finished 3rd or so in the talkbeer competition. I prefer it to many others I've used or have tasted that others have used. Of course, I like bone dry saisons.
 
I pre-boil the oak cubes for about 15 minutes and then soak in either white or red wine. You don't need to use the best stuff, but use something that you wouldn't mind drinking. I really like Verdejo and Sauvignon Blanc with white wines. For red, I've had success with Pinot and miscellaneous French blends. I haven't experienced any sort of oxidized character and the cubes last for many months. I keep them in 4oz mason jars filled to the top. To me, blending with wine at the end seems like cheating, though I know plenty of people do that.

Do you get any oak from cubes that are boiled that long? How is adding wine your way 'not cheating' and blending it before bottling 'cheating'? That's ridiculous.
 

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