spontaneous fermentation

[ncaudle]

looked through the forum here first but didn't see a dedicated topic to spontaneous ferm...

last weekend I made a bunch of saison wort (2 batches actually, 1 mashed at 159 and the other mashed at 149, then combined the 2 so every fermenter would get the same wort...) and took about 1/2 gallon worth and set it outside overnight under a budding Camelia tree to cool and see what it could collect. as of this morning I have very visible fermentation in the vessel - luckily no mold and it doesn't smell putrid.

without having access to a microscope and a lab is there anything I should do to ensure that what I was able to get is viable and good (outside of using only sight, smell and taste)

anything else I should bear in mind as I progress with this experiment?

 

[Snarf1]

I think the rule of thumb is over 2% abv and under 4.5 pH if you want to know it's safe to drink.

 

[harrymel1]

I think the rule of thumb is have your FIL and MIL try it and if they get sick, don't drink it but relish in their misfortune. If they don't get sick, resent them for having drunk your good ****.

 

[ncaudle]

I think the rule of thumb is have your FIL and MIL try it and if they get sick, don't drink it but relish in their misfortune. If they don't get sick, resent them for having drunk your good ****.

no in-laws...

 

[ElkSherpa1]

Active fermentation is a good sign. The character of the early fermentation won't give you too much of an idea of what the finished beer will be like 1,2, or 3 years down the road. Even putrid fermentation characteristics early on get metabolized into some really beautiful things in several years! The microbial dominance evolves throughout the duration of fermentation, and more often than not early fermentation character comes from enterobacter, which can be pretty nasty stuff. As mentioned before, monitor gravity and taste when there's a significant decrease in gravity. I won't taste our spontaneous beer until the gravity has reached ~1.015-1.010 (starting at ~1.038).

Time is your best ally. When you're not pitching yeast at a regimented rate with high cell populations, your sequences of fermentation will be very drawn out. And that is where the intrigue and magic occur; when these things are allowed to develop on their own time, without manipulation. However, as Czech pilsner can prove, manipulation in brewing can also be a great thing!

 

[stakem1]

Active fermentation is a good sign. The character of the early fermentation won't give you too much of an idea of what the finished beer will be like 1,2, or 3 years down the road. Even putrid fermentation characteristics early on get metabolized into some really beautiful things in several years! The microbial dominance evolves throughout the duration of fermentation, and more often than not early fermentation character comes from enterobacter, which can be pretty nasty stuff. As mentioned before, monitor gravity and taste when there's a significant decrease in gravity. I won't taste our spontaneous beer until the gravity has reached ~1.015-1.010 (starting at ~1.038).

Time is your best ally. When you're not pitching yeast at a regimented rate with high cell populations, your sequences of fermentation will be very drawn out. And that is where the intrigue and magic occur; when these things are allowed to develop on their own time, without manipulation. However, as Czech pilsner can prove, manipulation in brewing can also be a great thing!

I only opened this thread because I saw you posted in it (no offense ncaudle !!)
Your words are like poetry...will you read me a nighttime story or write me a valentine's day card with similar dialog? Between your words and Dany's beer, I am fully aroused right now.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

I only opened this thread because I saw you posted in it (no offense ncaudle !!)
Your words are like poetry...will you read me a nighttime story or write me a valentine's day card with similar dialog? Between your words and Dany's beer, I am fully aroused right now.

...I minored in English, but yeast are the true poets!

 

[SirDickButts]

and that is why i'll never get down with brewing wild/sour ales. my patience sucks so hard.
kudos to you guys. so srs. much admiration.

 

[ncaudle]

I only opened this thread because I saw you posted in it (no offense ncaudle !!)

 

[drgarage1]

and that is why i'll never get down with brewing wild/sour ales. my patience sucks so hard.
kudos to you guys. so srs. much admiration.

Fast sours are also totally doable and can be really tasty. They just won't provide the same complexity of something spontaneous.

 

[Pneill3161]

looked through the forum here first but didn't see a dedicated topic to spontaneous ferm...

last weekend I made a bunch of saison wort (2 batches actually, 1 mashed at 159 and the other mashed at 149, then combined the 2 so every fermenter would get the same wort...) and took about 1/2 gallon worth and set it outside overnight under a budding Camelia tree to cool and see what it could collect. as of this morning I have very visible fermentation in the vessel - luckily no mold and it doesn't smell putrid.

without having access to a microscope and a lab is there anything I should do to ensure that what I was able to get is viable and good (outside of using only sight, smell and taste)

anything else I should bear in mind as I progress with this experiment?

no in-laws...

I'd say you look good on both fronts, but only time will tell how that plays out.

I recently did a pseudo lambic from oud beersel lambic dregs. For the first 2 months it only went from about 1.036 to 1.028. Figured it was a bust, but let it go. By month 3 it dropped to 1.012, then 1.008. It turned into exactly what I wanted, so have patience.

 

[drgarage1]

I'd say you look good on both fronts, but only time will tell how that plays out.

I recently did a pseudo lambic from oud beersel lambic dregs. For the first 2 months it only went from about 1.036 to 1.028. Figured it was a bust, but let it go. By month 3 it dropped to 1.012, then 1.008. It turned into exactly what I wanted, so have patience.

Did it drop lower than that 1.008 is pretty high for a sour.

 

[Pneill3161]

Did it drop lower than that 1.008 is pretty high for a sour.

Yeah finished out at about 1.001-1.000

 

[FTowne1]

I'm going to make a gallon of low gravity, low hopped DME starter this weekend, split it in to 3-4 mason jars and place them in different locations around my yard.

Should I add yeast nutrient as well, or would it be a waste?

How long should I let the jars sit outside?

How long does it normally take to see signs of life?

 

[TheMurdawg]

I'm actually thinking about giving it a try this weekend as it may be the last weekend we get weather under 50 degrees (hopeful). The low on Friday is 43 and I plan on brewing after work and letting cool overnight in kettle. Is that too hot?

 

[doobiegoobie]

I haven't done this before with good results, but I live in Lubbock where all the bugs are covered in dirt and cow dung so who knows what happened.

I'm going to make a gallon of low gravity, low hopped DME starter this weekend, split it in to 3-4 mason jars and place them in different locations around my yard.

Should I add yeast nutrient as well, or would it be a waste?

How long should I let the jars sit outside?

How long does it normally take to see signs of life?

I would definitely add yeast nutrient. I would let them sit at least a few hours, but someone might have a better idea. I left it overnight, which could have been too long but I ended up getting drunk and forgetting about them. Probably a couple days to see signs of life.

I'm actually thinking about giving it a try this weekend as it may be the last weekend we get weather under 50 degrees (hopeful). The low on Friday is 43 and I plan on brewing after work and letting cool overnight in kettle. Is that too hot?

FWIW, I heard JVR on the Session (I think) talk about his best results happening around freezing. Not that you won't get good results a bit warmer, but if it were me I'd be a little wary. I'd probably go the collect bugs in starter wort and pitching that, but that's just me. Only one way to find out!

 

[SourBrewer]

I'm actually thinking about giving it a try this weekend as it may be the last weekend we get weather under 50 degrees (hopeful). The low on Friday is 43 and I plan on brewing after work and letting cool overnight in kettle. Is that too hot?

Cantillon starts brewing when overnight temps are at 45F with a breeze. Closer to freezing is considered optimum. My opinion is that it has more to do with the temps in the barrel room than species of airborne bugs.

I think the kettle would be fine. Normal morning wort temps are 70F.

I'm going to make a gallon of low gravity, low hopped DME starter this weekend, split it in to 3-4 mason jars and place them in different locations around my yard.

Should I add yeast nutrient as well, or would it be a waste?

How long should I let the jars sit outside?

How long does it normally take to see signs of life?

I would not add yeast nutrient bc I want strong bugs.

I would let them sit overnight as long as there are no insects present.

Put it on a warm stir plate and it will be active the next day. Put in a fridge at 50F and it may take a week.

I would recommend going with highly hopped over low hopped. Bacteria is going to try to take hold before yeast. It is more plentiful in the air and will grow faster. The alternative is to propagate your low hopped batch to high hopped batch after the yeast has had a chance to finish up.

 

[FTowne1]

Cantillon starts brewing when overnight temps are at 45F with a breeze. Closer to freezing is considered optimum. My opinion is that it has more to do with the temps in the barrel room than species of airborne bugs.

I think the kettle would be fine. Normal morning wort temps are 70F.



I would not add yeast nutrient bc I want strong bugs.

I would let them sit overnight as long as there are no insects present.

Put it on a warm stir plate and it will be active the next day. Put in a fridge at 50F and it may take a week.

I would recommend going with highly hopped over low hopped. Bacteria is going to try to take hold before yeast. It is more plentiful in the air and will grow faster. The alternative is to propagate your low hopped batch to high hopped batch after the yeast has had a chance to finish up.

I don't have a stir plate, and I planned on letting the samples (after bringing them inside) sit in my basement @60-ish degrees covered with foil. Do you think this will work?

Very helpful info. Thanks!

 

[SourBrewer]

I don't have a stir plate, and I planned on letting the samples (after bringing them inside) sit in my basement @60-ish degrees covered with foil. Do you think this will work?

Very helpful info. Thanks!

That is a good temp. I prefer a lid that limits air exposure. Otherwise the acetone/acetic aromas will mask what the yeast is producing.

 

[FTowne1]

That is a good temp. I prefer a lid that limits air exposure. Otherwise the acetone/acetic aromas will mask what the yeast is producing.

I'll put them in 1/2 gallon jugs with airlocks. Thanks again for the info!

 

[quirkzoo1]

...I minored in English, but yeast are the true poets!

Can you please make this your signature?

Also, great info all the way around here, definitely got me thinking about some experiments before it warms up too much.

 

[More Betterness]

Come to me Sierra yeasties

 

[hornydevil]

Fast sours are also totally doable and can be really tasty. They just won't provide the same complexity of something spontaneous.

I wouldn't say that. You have get a non-kettle soured beer from kettle to bottle in 8 - 10 weeks, depending on if you fruit it or not.

 

[hornydevil]

Anyone using a coolship or coolkettle when doing this?

 

[Chadzero1]

I did a 2 gallon batch over new years. Cooled in two small pots in my truck bed.

Taken at 1 week

How it looks in the carboy for the past 2 months. Kind of a creamy latte thing

 

[hornydevil]

Fun, though decently long, article on Methode Gueuze.