The slow decline of Founders Brewing, is it true or just a myth?

[Treebs]

Let me preface this by saying I'm a huge Founders fan. I have been since I got into craft 6-7 years ago. I've always had wonderful experiences going to the taproom and they still make some really solid beer. However, from the time I've started drinking Founders offerings until now I've noticed the overall care and quality that was put into each beer has decreased, and it isn't the same experience anymore. In my opinion the quality of beers like KBS and Backwoods Bastard has gone down in recent years, and I've been slowly noticing their hoppy offerings have been suspect in the balance department. I'm not sure if this is a direct result of their expansion over the last three years, the owners not caring about the product as much, not quite being dialed in new brewing systems or a combination of all/other reasons. I know there is difficulty in transitioning small batch brews to a larger scale, but Goose Island has been able to do that with beers like BCBS without problem.

The Backstage Series has really taken the most noticeable hit and the decline has been much more prominent there. The price points have all been suspect at best over the last few releases and with the announcement of their next release, Big Lushious (a 7.8% ABV Raspberry Chocolate Stout for $16.99) I finally think it's at the end. I'm not one of those beer nerds that expects CBS or Blushing Monk with every release, but I do know that it's not OK to charge the same amount for a Raspberry Stout or an Imperial Lager that you did for CBS or Better Half. If you're going to charge that much please give me a reason to buy that product at the price point. Justify the cost. That transitive proper doesn't work just because you slapped the "Backstage Series" on the label. It's not a maple barrel aged imperial stout with coffee added, it's a middle-tier abv stout with some raspberries. Pipeworks here in Chicago has the exact same beer for for $11.99. How can Big Lushious be $5 better? It seems like while they are attempting to keep the Backstage Series alive it's slowly losing steam. The last three releases sat on shelves (or are still sitting on shelves).

Is this Founders taking advantage of the current over saturation of beer nerds that actually know nothing about beer and just want the next shiny thing? Perhaps. I'm full aware that brewing is business, but it saddens me to see one of the greats/pioneers slowly going this way. People have been complaining that whenever they go the taproom there isn't anything on that can't be found down at the local grocery store in Grand Rapids. The food is good, but it seems like they're leaning away from the taproom being beer focused and more about the overall business side of it (which, again, is fine. I just won't be heading there to spend my money).

Maybe other breweries have just surpassed Founders in quality and consistency and I'm just a jaded beer geek trying to hold onto old feels. I really don't know. What say you TB community? Any truth to what I'm spewing or should I go back to my hole and talk about the good ole days to myself?

 

[user 306926]

Many have caught up, some have surpassed.
I do agree with the pricing being seemingly inflated for new and untested (in the distro market) beers.

Then again, hopefully the whole beer geek world is hating them and everything they do will just sit on shelves to be enjoyed (ideally) without hustle or hassle.

 

[steimie]

Is this Founders taking advantage of the current over saturation of beer nerds that actually know nothing about beer and just want the next shiny thing?

I think this is your answer.

I will say that I think FBS, FIS and the porter are all very good beers and I was surprised how much I liked Mosaic Promise.

 

[Treebs]

I think this is your answer.

I will say that I think FBS, FIS and the porter are all very good beers and I was surprised how much I liked Mosaic Promise.

I definitely agree on those beers still being excellent. Haven't had Mosaic Promise yet, but I should probably visit that. My ideas were based on the brewery as a whole. I'm still a fan and enjoy a good amount of there beers.

 

[Jb123]

Agree 100%.

 

[Scalzo]

I definitely agree on those beers still being excellent. Haven't had Mosaic Promise yet, but I should probably visit that. My ideas were based on the brewery as a whole. I'm still a fan and enjoy a good amount of there beers.

It was delivered to the binnys I go to, and was a month old when it got there


The tap room has definitely suffered. They had the same class 3 beers in march as they did when I was up there in July... ****ing barrel aged spite

 

[Treebs]

It was delivered to the binnys I go to, and was a month old when it got there


The tap room has definitely suffered. They had the same class 3 beers in march as they did when I was up there in July... ****ing barrel aged spite

At least they had a class three beer there. The last two times I've gone there's been no class three and only one class two.

 

[Pneill3161]

Totally agree, was just talking about the new backstage release, big lushious, it sounds like they just blended FBS and rubeus and figured for that extra effort it should cost 10x more. Just don't understand their direction with that series, they knock it out of the park on the first 2 releases. Then we got Frangelic mountain brown and it's been downhill since then. I just want some god damn black Biscuit!

 

[Lutter]

I think a lot of it has to do with Founders becoming the "All Day IPA" company. I really don't think they give a **** about the Backstage series anymore.

With all their resources, they sure do like to jerk around their fans. It's the same kinda slump New Belgium has been in with their Lips of Faith series for the last 2 years. I think they just do it because they think they have to.

 

[Trady]

My (previously) local liquor store stopped carrying Founders altogether because of disappointing business decisions. The beer manager said that Founders, not the distributor, managed what accounts their special releases went to, and while my local sold out of every special release quickly and in high volume, it's in an economically depressed area, and not "Founders' Target Demographic".

This beer manager is a known conspiracy theorist, but he also said that his allocations were declining, and no matter what he did, the brewery and distributor was unresponsive. He said Centennial also sat around a lot.

 

[sacrelicio]

I still don't get the hate for Doom and Sweet Repute. Everyone jizzed over Doom when it was taproom only but hated on the beer once it was distributed. I thought it was excellent. Sweet Repute was in the vein of CBS and BH and although maybe not as good as those two beers, still a very good BA strong ale. Mango wasn't amazing but it certainly wasn't bad. Dissenter was just fine, but not amazing. Blushing Monk was good but I think much of the love is because it wasn't hyped initially despite being a good beer and is quickly becoming rare. Geeks just like to talk **** like this to fluff their own dick.

They're still one of the best widely distributed craft breweries. FIS, FBS, Red's Rye, Harvest, Double Trouble, Backwoods Bastard are awesome and the rest are above average or very good.

Except KBS. **** KBS.

 

[sacrelicio]

At least they had a class three beer there. The last two times I've gone there's been no class three and only one class two.

I looked at their taproom list recently and there was not a single beer listed that I couldn't find here.

 

[sherm10161]

Mosaic Promise was awesome. That is all.

 

[sacrelicio]

Mosaic Promise was awesome. That is all.

They still have the chops to make good beer...also they seem to take care of their local fans with these MI/GR only releases. I can't hate.

 

[sacrelicio]

It seems like while they are attempting to keep the Backstage Series alive it's slowly losing steam. The last three releases sat on shelves (or are still sitting on shelves).

I really don't think they give a **** about the Backstage series anymore.

What, because 'beards don't bum rush the store to grab their one-per and then chase trucks that means the beer isn't good and Founders is giving up? Blushing Monk sat FOREVER back when it came out and Sweet Repute, although not as hard to get as some releases, was still somewhat of a scramble to land.

 

[Ataraxia1]

No need to bug tectactoe about the next KBS release, BCBCS is much better.

I tried Sweet Repute b/c I got the opportunity to buy it along with a 4-pack of KBS last release. The store staff made it out to be a big ****ing deal (it's not), and Repute was pretty disappointing as a BA maple stout given how others have fared in that specific sub-style (KBBS, MD, BG&E)

 

[abawol01]

No need to bug tectactoe about the next KBS release, BCBCS is much better.

I tried Sweet Repute b/c I got the opportunity to buy it along with a 4-pack of KBS last release. The store staff made it out to be a big ****ing deal (it's not), and Repute was pretty disappointing as a BA maple stout given how others have fared in that specific sub-style (KBBS, MD, BG&E)

I think saying a maple barrel wheatwine is not as good of a maple barrel stout as actual maple barrel stouts is a very accurate statement.

 

[Treebs]

What, because 'beards don't bum rush the store to grab their one-per and then chase trucks that means the beer isn't good and Founders is giving up? Blushing Monk sat FOREVER back when it came out and Sweet Repute, although not as hard to get as some releases, was still somewhat of a scramble to land.

Not at all. They sit on the shelves for a reason. They aren't that good and they're overpriced. If you can give a reasonable explanation to charge $16 for a 750 ml bottle of brown ale with artificial sweetener, an imperial lager, a smoked porter, or a strong ale with mangos and habaneros I'd love to hear it.

I also never said that they were giving up, but that the series as a whole was losing steam. This is quote from the original press release for the Backstage Series:

"The company is not revealing the entire lineup, but Engbers said it would consist of many of the “popular one-offs” that have been offered in the taproom over the years and have become favorites. “I think part of what people love about Founders, besides our beer, is that we listen to what they are saying,” says President Mike Stevens. “With our new line, now we can offer them more of what they’ve been asking for.”

They have clearly missed the mark in getting these Popular one off's as off late and have been coming up with some newer stuff that really isn't all the good. Plus, it seems like they've been re-hashing popular taproom beers and just completely failing. Cashew Mountain Brown was simply amazing, Frangelic was bad. Big Lushious seems like a play on the FBS/Rubaeus mix at the taproom, but based on the initial press release and recipe it seems like they're missing the mark with that one too.

Look, don't get me wrong. As my first sentence stated I'm a huge Founders fan and some of their beers are still world class. All I'm saying it seems like they are missing the mark more and more as they become disillusioned with expansion (among other things). Expansion doesn't always equal better.

 

[sacrelicio]

Not at all. They sit on the shelves for a reason. They aren't that good and they're overpriced. If you can give a reasonable explanation to charge $16 for a 750 ml bottle of brown ale with artificial sweetener, an imperial lager, a smoked porter, or a strong ale with mangos and habaneros I'd love to hear it.

I also never said that they were giving up, but that the series as a whole was losing steam. This is quote from the original press release for the Backstage Series:

"The company is not revealing the entire lineup, but Engbers said it would consist of many of the “popular one-offs” that have been offered in the taproom over the years and have become favorites. “I think part of what people love about Founders, besides our beer, is that we listen to what they are saying,” says President Mike Stevens. “With our new line, now we can offer them more of what they’ve been asking for.”

They have clearly missed the mark in getting these Popular one off's as off late and have been coming up with some newer stuff that really isn't all the good. Plus, it seems like they've been re-hashing popular taproom beers and just completely failing. Cashew Mountain Brown was simply amazing, Frangelic was bad. Big Lushious seems like a play on the FBS/Rubaeus mix at the taproom, but based on the initial press release and recipe it seems like they're missing the mark with that one too.

Look, don't get me wrong. As my first sentence stated I'm a huge Founders fan and some of their beers are still world class. All I'm saying it seems like they are missing the mark more and more as they become disillusioned with expansion (among other things). Expansion doesn't always equal better.

Frangelic indeed sucked. But people be all like "Backstage sucks, it's over."

And 16 dollars for Dissenter? We have it for 11 here.

 

[user 306926]

I thought Sweet Repute was pretty kickass, but I have a wheatwine bias.

Not at all. They sit on the shelves for a reason. They aren't that good and they're overpriced. If you can give a reasonable explanation to charge $16 for a 750 ml bottle of brown ale with artificial sweetener, an imperial lager, a smoked porter, or a strong ale with mangos and habaneros I'd love to hear it.

I also never said that they were giving up, but that the series as a whole was losing steam. This is quote from the original press release for the Backstage Series:

"The company is not revealing the entire lineup, but Engbers said it would consist of many of the “popular one-offs” that have been offered in the taproom over the years and have become favorites. “I think part of what people love about Founders, besides our beer, is that we listen to what they are saying,” says President Mike Stevens. “With our new line, now we can offer them more of what they’ve been asking for.”

They have clearly missed the mark in getting these Popular one off's as off late and have been coming up with some newer stuff that really isn't all the good. Plus, it seems like they've been re-hashing popular taproom beers and just completely failing. Cashew Mountain Brown was simply amazing, Frangelic was bad. Big Lushious seems like a play on the FBS/Rubaeus mix at the taproom, but based on the initial press release and recipe it seems like they're missing the mark with that one too.

Look, don't get me wrong. As my first sentence stated I'm a huge Founders fan and some of their beers are still world class. All I'm saying it seems like they are missing the mark more and more as they become disillusioned with expansion (among other things). Expansion doesn't always equal better.

Face it brah, you a hater.

 

[jmgrub]

Flounders Brewing Company.

I'm not in the distro footprint and only tend to tick the Backstage releases, KBS etc. I don't think it's that KBS/FBS/FIS/Backwoods have gotten significantly worse, but that there are now tons of stout/BA stout options around and Founders doesn't get that beer geek dick as hard as it used to. They seem to be heading more in a Sierra Nevada direction than a [pick your flavor of the week] direction.

Beer geeks are so fickle, myself included. I bet if you blind taste-tested 100 beer geeks on KBS and some flavor of the week BA stout, at least half would prefer KBS.

 

[Treebs]

Face it brah, you a hater.

 

[RyanG1]

tl;dr

SRS though, when I first started drinking stuff besides locals, I really enjoyed KBS and Breakfast Stout, but like a lot of things my tastes have changed for the better and worse.

 

[Ataraxia1]

I think saying a maple barrel wheatwine is not as good of a maple barrel stout as actual maple barrel stouts is a very accurate statement.

Whoops, thought someone said it was a stout and I just went with it (really don't remember what that beer was like at this point)

 

[user 305963]

Call me a homer, but my short answer is, "myth". Allow me to state my opinions...

I don't think their quality has diminished, per se. I do believe that certain beers did drop off when they moved to their larger system, 2013 KBS being one of them. There was also a weird batch of Breakfast Stout that hit the taproom after expansion. But in my opinion, each of those beers were fixed the next year. Maybe its a perception thing, since I don't really drink any of the mainstream Founders beer from bottles. I love the **** out of All Day from the can, but I don't buy much else. So my experience with distributed beer, as seen from many outside of West Michigan, is very different. As always, YMMV.

As for pricing, even I can agree that $17 is out of line for Big Lushious, when compared to other Backstage releases. My first thought was similar to others, FBS + Rubaeus blend. Which it isn't, as they had this beer on tap for a few days in July. It's on Untappd as Raspberry Chocolate Stout. I didn't personally have it, but I know others who did and it was a lot sweeter than what you would get when mixing FBS and Rubaeus. It was received well when on tap. Should Founders make CBS again, I say no. The train has left the station, it'll never be the same. I think there are so many other breweries that do big imperial stouts, that it would be such a let down for so many. It was great when it came out, because it was one of the first.

As for the weak taplist over the last month or so, the only thing I have heard, is that Founders went through a lot more beer than they expected over the last few months. ArtPrize, a 2.5 week long city-wide art contest, starts up this coming Wednesday and all of downtown GR is a ******** for the entire duration. Last year, almost 250,000 people visited GR in that 2.5 weeks. Founders is a title sponsor (see Mosaic Promise) and is a venue for many pieces of art in the contest. They are holding back beer so that they don't run out during ArtPrize. Is it a valid reason, I think so. Is it going to get better, not sure. Founders is looking to expand further with an offsite brewing location, with aspirations to get to 600,000 barrels of production.

When compared to other breweries in the beer nerd-dom spotlight right now, they can't compete. They don't make the same styles that seem to draw all of the attention. They don't do big juicy IPAs like HF or TG. They don't make wild ales, berliners and saisons like De Garde, Side Project, Tired Hands or (again) HF. So, have they kept up with the competition, with respect to the "hot style of the moment"? No. But, have they declined in what they do, and their own portfolio? No. I believe they have reached "old has been" status among this crazed beer culture. Do they care, not likely.

They have these three words on their logo, "Brewed for us", and I do believe they really brew by those words. Part of me thinks that out of stubbornness, they won't ever distribute CBS or Black Biscuit or whatever this small beer-crazed community wants, because then they'll be brewing for "you", not "us". They have new-to-craft people walking into the taproom every day. They are expanding distribution to new states every year. There taproom is busy, all the damn time. There's a lineup around the building every Dec 1st when open mug club memberships go on sale. They're doing it right in my opinion.

 

[Treebs]

Call me a homer, but my short answer is, "myth". Allow me to state my opinions...

I don't think their quality has diminished, per se. I do believe that certain beers did drop off when they moved to their larger system, 2013 KBS being one of them. There was also a weird batch of Breakfast Stout that hit the taproom after expansion. But in my opinion, each of those beers were fixed the next year. Maybe its a perception thing, since I don't really drink any of the mainstream Founders beer from bottles. I love the **** out of All Day from the can, but I don't buy much else. So my experience with distributed beer, as seen from many outside of West Michigan, is very different. As always, YMMV.

As for pricing, even I can agree that $17 is out of line for Big Lushious, when compared to other Backstage releases. My first thought was similar to others, FBS + Rubaeus blend. Which it isn't, as they had this beer on tap for a few days in July. It's on Untappd as Raspberry Chocolate Stout. I didn't personally have it, but I know others who did and it was a lot sweeter than what you would get when mixing FBS and Rubaeus. It was received well when on tap. Should Founders make CBS again, I say no. The train has left the station, it'll never be the same. I think there are so many other breweries that do big imperial stouts, that it would be such a let down for so many. It was great when it came out, because it was one of the first.

As for the weak taplist over the last month or so, the only thing I have heard, is that Founders went through a lot more beer than they expected over the last few months. ArtPrize, a 2.5 week long city-wide art contest, starts up this coming Wednesday and all of downtown GR is a ******** for the entire duration. Last year, almost 250,000 people visited GR in that 2.5 weeks. Founders is a title sponsor (see Mosaic Promise) and is a venue for many pieces of art in the contest. They are holding back beer so that they don't run out during ArtPrize. Is it a valid reason, I think so. Is it going to get better, not sure. Founders is looking to expand further with an offsite brewing location, with aspirations to get to 600,000 barrels of production.

When compared to other breweries in the beer nerd-dom spotlight right now, they can't compete. They don't make the same styles that seem to draw all of the attention. They don't do big juicy IPAs like HF or TG. They don't make wild ales, berliners and saisons like De Garde, Side Project, Tired Hands or (again) HF. So, have they kept up with the competition, with respect to the "hot style of the moment"? No. But, have they declined in what they do, and their own portfolio? No. I believe they have reached "old has been" status among this crazed beer culture. Do they care, not likely.

They have these three words on their logo, "Brewed for us", and I do believe they really brew by those words. Part of me thinks that out of stubbornness, they won't ever distribute CBS or Black Biscuit or whatever this small beer-crazed community wants, because then they'll be brewing for "you", not "us". They have new-to-craft people walking into the taproom every day. They are expanding distribution to new states every year. There taproom is busy, all the damn time. There's a lineup around the building every Dec 1st when open mug club memberships go on sale. They're doing it right in my opinion.

I actually don't want Founders to start making and experimenting with wild yeasts and such. That's part of the reason why I like them is because they've stuck to the "basics", however it's when the basics start suffering that it's a little disheartening. I personally thought 2014 KBS was the worst I've ever had, same with the last release of Backwoods.

I don't know if it's due to the expansion, but Founders has had trouble getting fresh beer across Lake over the last year or so. They seem so focused on expansion that servicing existing other markets seems like an afterthought.

I also wouldn't use being busy as a barometer for how well a company's product is. A fair number of mediocre brewers around the US are busy ALL the time as well.

 

[sacrelicio]

Call me a homer, but my short answer is, "myth". Allow me to state my opinions...

I don't think their quality has diminished, per se. I do believe that certain beers did drop off when they moved to their larger system, 2013 KBS being one of them. There was also a weird batch of Breakfast Stout that hit the taproom after expansion. But in my opinion, each of those beers were fixed the next year. Maybe its a perception thing, since I don't really drink any of the mainstream Founders beer from bottles. I love the **** out of All Day from the can, but I don't buy much else. So my experience with distributed beer, as seen from many outside of West Michigan, is very different. As always, YMMV.

As for pricing, even I can agree that $17 is out of line for Big Lushious, when compared to other Backstage releases. My first thought was similar to others, FBS + Rubaeus blend. Which it isn't, as they had this beer on tap for a few days in July. It's on Untappd as Raspberry Chocolate Stout. I didn't personally have it, but I know others who did and it was a lot sweeter than what you would get when mixing FBS and Rubaeus. It was received well when on tap. Should Founders make CBS again, I say no. The train has left the station, it'll never be the same. I think there are so many other breweries that do big imperial stouts, that it would be such a let down for so many. It was great when it came out, because it was one of the first.

As for the weak taplist over the last month or so, the only thing I have heard, is that Founders went through a lot more beer than they expected over the last few months. ArtPrize, a 2.5 week long city-wide art contest, starts up this coming Wednesday and all of downtown GR is a ******** for the entire duration. Last year, almost 250,000 people visited GR in that 2.5 weeks. Founders is a title sponsor (see Mosaic Promise) and is a venue for many pieces of art in the contest. They are holding back beer so that they don't run out during ArtPrize. Is it a valid reason, I think so. Is it going to get better, not sure. Founders is looking to expand further with an offsite brewing location, with aspirations to get to 600,000 barrels of production.

When compared to other breweries in the beer nerd-dom spotlight right now, they can't compete. They don't make the same styles that seem to draw all of the attention. They don't do big juicy IPAs like HF or TG. They don't make wild ales, berliners and saisons like De Garde, Side Project, Tired Hands or (again) HF. So, have they kept up with the competition, with respect to the "hot style of the moment"? No. But, have they declined in what they do, and their own portfolio? No. I believe they have reached "old has been" status among this crazed beer culture. Do they care, not likely.

They have these three words on their logo, "Brewed for us", and I do believe they really brew by those words. Part of me thinks that out of stubbornness, they won't ever distribute CBS or Black Biscuit or whatever this small beer-crazed community wants, because then they'll be brewing for "you", not "us". They have new-to-craft people walking into the taproom every day. They are expanding distribution to new states every year. There taproom is busy, all the damn time. There's a lineup around the building every Dec 1st when open mug club memberships go on sale. They're doing it right in my opinion.

Yeah, they're becoming (if they aren't there already) a Ballast Point/Stone/Lagunitas/Bear Republic/Alesmith/Firestone/Bell's/Victory/Oskar Blues/Deschutes type operation. Big deal. Good for them. Except they used to have a few crazy wales andsome hype. No one ever talks **** about most of the other bigger guys because they didn't really have wales or hype. But anyways, the only people talking **** now are us niche types.

 

[bsc]

For me it comes down to pricing, freshness and similar locals. The only not out of date Founders at my shop is All Day and (insert seasonal here, which will soon be out of date).

All day is great, FBS and KBS are great, everything else is passable and/or overpriced compared to locals.

Seems to me they grew and are focused on bigger picture (all day everywhere) than other thibgs .

 

[sacrelicio]

Call me a homer, but my short answer is, "myth". Allow me to state my opinions...

I don't think their quality has diminished, per se. I do believe that certain beers did drop off when they moved to their larger system, 2013 KBS being one of them. There was also a weird batch of Breakfast Stout that hit the taproom after expansion. But in my opinion, each of those beers were fixed the next year. Maybe its a perception thing, since I don't really drink any of the mainstream Founders beer from bottles. I love the **** out of All Day from the can, but I don't buy much else. So my experience with distributed beer, as seen from many outside of West Michigan, is very different. As always, YMMV.

As for pricing, even I can agree that $17 is out of line for Big Lushious, when compared to other Backstage releases. My first thought was similar to others, FBS + Rubaeus blend. Which it isn't, as they had this beer on tap for a few days in July. It's on Untappd as Raspberry Chocolate Stout. I didn't personally have it, but I know others who did and it was a lot sweeter than what you would get when mixing FBS and Rubaeus. It was received well when on tap. Should Founders make CBS again, I say no. The train has left the station, it'll never be the same. I think there are so many other breweries that do big imperial stouts, that it would be such a let down for so many. It was great when it came out, because it was one of the first.

As for the weak taplist over the last month or so, the only thing I have heard, is that Founders went through a lot more beer than they expected over the last few months. ArtPrize, a 2.5 week long city-wide art contest, starts up this coming Wednesday and all of downtown GR is a ******** for the entire duration. Last year, almost 250,000 people visited GR in that 2.5 weeks. Founders is a title sponsor (see Mosaic Promise) and is a venue for many pieces of art in the contest. They are holding back beer so that they don't run out during ArtPrize. Is it a valid reason, I think so. Is it going to get better, not sure. Founders is looking to expand further with an offsite brewing location, with aspirations to get to 600,000 barrels of production.

When compared to other breweries in the beer nerd-dom spotlight right now, they can't compete. They don't make the same styles that seem to draw all of the attention. They don't do big juicy IPAs like HF or TG. They don't make wild ales, berliners and saisons like De Garde, Side Project, Tired Hands or (again) HF. So, have they kept up with the competition, with respect to the "hot style of the moment"? No. But, have they declined in what they do, and their own portfolio? No. I believe they have reached "old has been" status among this crazed beer culture. Do they care, not likely.

They have these three words on their logo, "Brewed for us", and I do believe they really brew by those words. Part of me thinks that out of stubbornness, they won't ever distribute CBS or Black Biscuit or whatever this small beer-crazed community wants, because then they'll be brewing for "you", not "us". They have new-to-craft people walking into the taproom every day. They are expanding distribution to new states every year. There taproom is busy, all the damn time. There's a lineup around the building every Dec 1st when open mug club memberships go on sale. They're doing it right in my opinion.

It's funny you talk about Founders and being a homer, because people are starting to talk all this **** about Surly, and as a homer, the beer is still good, they put on great events, they help the community, and they do a pretty good job with distro and meeting demand. Hell, even the taproom has one offs and new beers all the time. But according to some people online, they "suck" because Pentagram is just OK and not worth trading for. What more do you people want?

 

[user 305963]

See I've heard that about 2014 KBS, and that there was a bad bottle date, but I've had bottles from that date and they were the same as any of the other dates, which I thought were great. Not saying your wrong, I just haven't experienced it myself. Out of curiosity, what other basics besides KBS and Backwoods do you feel have suffered? Honestly, just curious, not trying to pick apart your opinion. I sometimes think that because I have the same beers over and over, I may be missing subtle changes over time.

And yes, you're right, "being busy" shouldn't be used as an indicator of product quality. I personally qualify it with my own opinion that the beer is just as good as when I started going there.

 

[user 305963]

For me it comes down to pricing, freshness and similar locals. The only not out of date Founders at my shop is All Day and (insert seasonal here, which will soon be out of date).

All day is great, FBS and KBS are great, everything else is passable and/or overpriced compared to locals.

Seems to me they grew and are focused on bigger picture (all day everywhere) than other thibgs .

Yes, All Day has been a huge hit for them. Gotta follow the demand. Here's a quote from the article linked below,

"Overall sales are up 54 percent over 2013, said Stevens. Sales of All Day IPA, a session ale that Founders spent four years perfecting as a flagship brand before debuting last summer, is up 138 percent over last year.


All Day IPA is not the only Founders beer surging in sales. Centennial IPA is up 63 percent over 2013; Dirty Bastard is up 48 percent, and Founders Porter is up 87 percent, he said."

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/07/founders_will_double_in_size_b.html

 

[sherm10161]

Gotta follow the demand.

"Brewed for us"

 

[Treebs]

See I've heard that about 2014 KBS, and that there was a bad bottle date, but I've had bottles from that date and they were the same as any of the other dates, which I thought were great. Not saying your wrong, I just haven't experienced it myself. Out of curiosity, what other basics besides KBS and Backwoods do you feel have suffered? Honestly, just curious, not trying to pick apart your opinion. I sometimes think that because I have the same beers over and over, I may be missing subtle changes over time.

And yes, you're right, "being busy" shouldn't be used as an indicator of product quality. I personally qualify it with my own opinion that the beer is just as good as when I started going there.

The freshness of beers has suffered, so perhaps that is a direct correlation between the comparative tastes. The times I've had the dry-hopped Pale or Red's Rye recently have been meh at best compared to previous encounters and the few times I've had All Day it's been a malt bomb with barely any detectable hop profile.

As far as the bolded statement above goes, you have to account for the increase in popularity of craft beer. There's way more people looking to get into craft beer or already a part of the community hence the taproom is just as busy as always. I'd venture to guess there's way more "new" faces creating that busy factor as opposed to regular customers.

 

[Frank1]

I like founders, but agree with these points that have already been made:

Freshness is ALWAYS an issue. All Day is the only fresh founders I can find, and I can't always find that fresh either (considering fresh to be 1-2mo from bottling, which is a wider margin than I'd give bottles from many, many other breweries)

They have not kept up with the trends. This isn't a huge issue for me. What good is a big tropical 8% IPA to me if I can't find it fresh?

They're a big ol' commercial brewery and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Yes, it sucks to see your favorite local spot "sell out" but good for them.

 

[Michigan1]

Interesting thread. I will continue to monitor this

 

[user 305963]

The freshness of beers has suffered, so perhaps that is a direct correlation between the comparative tastes. The times I've had the dry-hopped Pale or Red's Rye recently have been meh at best compared to previous encounters and the few times I've had All Day it's been a malt bomb with barely any detectable hop profile.

As far as the bolded statement above goes, you have to account for the increase in popularity of craft beer. There's way more people looking to get into craft beer or already a part of the community hence the taproom is just as busy as always. I'd venture to guess there's way more "new" faces creating that busy factor as opposed to regular customers.

Good point. They've reached "Destination Brewery" status. How many threads show up on that other site with the topic "Traveling to Grand Rapids, what breweries should I go to?" Founders is almost always in the top 3 or 4.

 

[sacrelicio]

Yes, All Day has been a huge hit for them. Gotta follow the demand. Here's a quote from the article linked below,

"Overall sales are up 54 percent over 2013, said Stevens. Sales of All Day IPA, a session ale that Founders spent four years perfecting as a flagship brand before debuting last summer, is up 138 percent over last year.


All Day IPA is not the only Founders beer surging in sales. Centennial IPA is up 63 percent over 2013; Dirty Bastard is up 48 percent, and Founders Porter is up 87 percent, he said."

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/07/founders_will_double_in_size_b.html

People rock the 15 racks here all the time.

 

[user 305963]

They're a big ol' commercial brewery and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Yes, it sucks to see your favorite local spot "sell out" but good for them.

Actually, there were quite a few members from the old Brassworks location that gave up their memberships when Founders expanded. They hated the fact that some of the newly hired bartenders didn't know their name, or what their "go-to" beer was. It was quite comical to listen to them complain. Typically, you have to read those things on a beer forum.

 

[thebandit1]

See I've heard that about 2014 KBS, and that there was a bad bottle date, but I've had bottles from that date and they were the same as any of the other dates, which I thought were great. Not saying your wrong, I just haven't experienced it myself. Out of curiosity, what other basics besides KBS and Backwoods do you feel have suffered? Honestly, just curious, not trying to pick apart your opinion. I sometimes think that because I have the same beers over and over, I may be missing subtle changes over time.

And yes, you're right, "being busy" shouldn't be used as an indicator of product quality. I personally qualify it with my own opinion that the beer is just as good as when I started going there.

I know we talked about this last week and I wish I still had a bottle to confirm the date, because the 6 bottles of KBS I got last year were THIN with NO barrel. And like I said last week, I don't know if something changed or if my palette changed but it was mediocre, at best.

Otherwise, I don't buy a lot of their beer anymore for a bunch of reasons, excepting All Day, which I buy a lot. First, Centennial is terrible. So is their Pale. Porter is fantastic but not something I buy more than once or twice a year. I would much rather buy an IPA or APA from Shorts because it will be fresher and I think their hop profile is better. FIS is still great, though.

And the Backstage Series is ok, I guess. I always buy one but they aren't special or interesting. With that said, the only two I hated were Frangelic and Dissenter. Both were not drinkable.

One thing I will say is SE Michigan routinely gets the shaft on Founders releases, though they ask seem to get the shaft on a lot of releases. I've seen people drinking FBS all week and we haven't gotten any yet. Ah, well.












I will say this thread is getting very "other site". So, let's get this back on track, what's better, Pliny or Heady?

 

[Gennycreamale]

Call me a homer, but my short answer is, "myth". Allow me to state my opinions...

I don't think their quality has diminished, per se. I do believe that certain beers did drop off when they moved to their larger system, 2013 KBS being one of them. There was also a weird batch of Breakfast Stout that hit the taproom after expansion. But in my opinion, each of those beers were fixed the next year. Maybe its a perception thing, since I don't really drink any of the mainstream Founders beer from bottles. I love the **** out of All Day from the can, but I don't buy much else. So my experience with distributed beer, as seen from many outside of West Michigan, is very different. As always, YMMV.

As for pricing, even I can agree that $17 is out of line for Big Lushious, when compared to other Backstage releases. My first thought was similar to others, FBS + Rubaeus blend. Which it isn't, as they had this beer on tap for a few days in July. It's on Untappd as Raspberry Chocolate Stout. I didn't personally have it, but I know others who did and it was a lot sweeter than what you would get when mixing FBS and Rubaeus. It was received well when on tap. Should Founders make CBS again, I say no. The train has left the station, it'll never be the same. I think there are so many other breweries that do big imperial stouts, that it would be such a let down for so many. It was great when it came out, because it was one of the first.

As for the weak taplist over the last month or so, the only thing I have heard, is that Founders went through a lot more beer than they expected over the last few months. ArtPrize, a 2.5 week long city-wide art contest, starts up this coming Wednesday and all of downtown GR is a ******** for the entire duration. Last year, almost 250,000 people visited GR in that 2.5 weeks. Founders is a title sponsor (see Mosaic Promise) and is a venue for many pieces of art in the contest. They are holding back beer so that they don't run out during ArtPrize. Is it a valid reason, I think so. Is it going to get better, not sure. Founders is looking to expand further with an offsite brewing location, with aspirations to get to 600,000 barrels of production.

When compared to other breweries in the beer nerd-dom spotlight right now, they can't compete. They don't make the same styles that seem to draw all of the attention. They don't do big juicy IPAs like HF or TG. They don't make wild ales, berliners and saisons like De Garde, Side Project, Tired Hands or (again) HF. So, have they kept up with the competition, with respect to the "hot style of the moment"? No. But, have they declined in what they do, and their own portfolio? No. I believe they have reached "old has been" status among this crazed beer culture. Do they care, not likely.

They have these three words on their logo, "Brewed for us", and I do believe they really brew by those words. Part of me thinks that out of stubbornness, they won't ever distribute CBS or Black Biscuit or whatever this small beer-crazed community wants, because then they'll be brewing for "you", not "us". They have new-to-craft people walking into the taproom every day. They are expanding distribution to new states every year. There taproom is busy, all the damn time. There's a lineup around the building every Dec 1st when open mug club memberships go on sale. They're doing it right in my opinion.

I like your point of view and I agree with the 'has been' status, which apparently hasn't hurt their bottom line at all, go figure...but I disagree with the CBS take. I think they should do it again, pretty sure the **** show would be epic.