Toxic Topic Trump Presidency Thread

Discussion in 'Totally Off-Topic' started by matedog, Jan 23, 2017.

  1. Phischy

    Phischy

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    Lol, you guys are hilarious. The Federal government nationalizes educational loans and makes the problem exponentially worse. With nearly zero oversight to the accrediting process and by giving loans out to anyone asking they've directly helped create the situation we're in. The solution of forgiveness and adding that red ink to the national debt isn't right.

    This is one of the biggest examples of big government making a problem worse and being nearly entirely self inflicted. Tightening accreditation standards and issuing loans to only those who are seeking loans for correct sized debt to future earning potential. For instance, the federal government shouldn't be issuing loans to a student going a very expensive school where the degree has no hope of ever being able to pay the debt off. Isn't that the definition of predatory lending, then cranking up the interest owed?

    And the GAO warned early on this was going to be a huge issue. 40% of borrowers aren't making payments. But nothing was done, they let a broken system become a cancer. There's no excusing this mismanagement of public funds. The romantic idea of college for everyone hits the pavement of reality at terminal velocity we're in now.
     
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  2. reverseapachemaster

    reverseapachemaster

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    [​IMG]
     
  3. capnmike

    capnmike

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    I know you're not on team Devos, but above is the exact (Obama-era) regulation that she just decided to delay.

    https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/devos-presses-pause-burdensome-gainful-employment-regulations
     
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  4. sacrelicio

    sacrelicio

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    Right, but this machine has to keep chugging along, and in America, home ownership and higher education are seen as very noble things to strive for, and both are extremely important for the economy to function, so the government does whatever it can to encourage both of those.

    So not only do we have an American lifestyle that's propped up by credit, but we also have easy loans for things like education and housing, which are seen as necessary expenses. As a result you have these crazy up/down housing cycles, runaway inflation in higher education costs driven by easy loans, and consumer and health care spending that is put on credit cards. A lot of people will never really be able to pay this money back. And lenders know this, but they fill the gap by lending out more and more to people who they think maybe can pay. Now with student loans, you can't discharge those in bankruptcy, but if you have millions of people having to give most of their money to pay their student loans, then that throttles consumer spending, since these people end up without any money to spend on anything else, and bankruptcies and poor credit scores from being over-leveraged means people can't buy homes, so then that market is throttled, which affects the equity of "responsible" people. Add in stagnant wages and poor job prospects for educated young people (and economic downturns that affect everyone's employment) and you have a real mess.

    Of course we can blame the individual consumers but if it's a systemic problem that's not really reasonable. These people are making fairly rational decisions, education means a better job, a house means a better life for them and their family (and a better house means better public schools!) and if it's easy to borrow to get those things then people are going to do that. And if you're 18 years old, you don't really have a concept of what your adult life will look like. Your parents took out money for school, and they seem to be doing OK, and all your friends are borrowing $XX,XXX, so why not you too? It'll work itself out, you'll get a good job after graduation. And if you don't, you can always go back to school to improve your marketable skills. But that's more loans...

    So instead of a public system to address any of these needs, we have this semi-privatized system based on loans. And with housing and education, we have federal lenders who serve both of those markets so that people can get less expensive loans. And those are big programs, so they have a large impact on the overall system.

    Nationalized lending programs can probably absorb losses much better than private lenders, and are run with at least somewhat of an eye on stability and the common good, rather than on profits. But we have businesses (with politicians supporting them) who want things as privatized as possible so they can make money off of it. And those same people have convinced a large portion of the American population that government intervention or ownership is morally wrong, or "wasteful" or propping up the "takers" or whatever else. So the federal programs get blamed, of course, and you hear more calls for privatization. Now, if you're a politician, on either side of the aisle, your voters want to be able to buy houses and send their kids to school, so reducing or scrapping these programs is not politically smart, unless you can convince (trick) people into thinking that they'll be better off without these things and just let corporations take them over. I'm not sure we're at that point yet but that's what they're trying to do.

    The thing that's funny is that a lot of people in this country, generally on the right, don't like the idea of the government "printing" money through deficit spending on government programs or stimulus packages, or through monetary policy, or whatever, because that will cause inflation. But education/housing lending plus credit cards for consumer spending still injects a lot of money into the economy that otherwise wouldn't be there.
     
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  5. drgarage

    drgarage

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    Triggered much, liberal???
     
  6. Phischy

    Phischy

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    Hilarious. The gainful employment regulation was set to start 7 years after nationalizing student loans and conviently after Obama left office. What a joke.

    Given the complete ineptitude borderline criminal nature of these loans the feds should be removed from making any loans. I have no idea why people want more big government given their repeated failures with current responsibilities.
     
  7. shadowane

    shadowane

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    What the hell did you read today to get you started on this new tangent?
     
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  8. lurchingbeast

    lurchingbeast

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    How often do you use the phrase 'redpilled' in a week? Ballpark is okay.
     
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  9. Phischy

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    Good idea in theory except history repeats itself that weakening loaning requirements will lead to disaster.

    Overhaul the accreditation process and cap the % profits for-profit school can earn. The end goal of education shouldn't be personal enrichment.

    Develop a ratio of how much can be borrowed for the sector a student plans to work in. If it means you can't go to a super expensive school for a low paying career, too bad.
     
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  10. capnmike

    capnmike

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    Started in 2011:

    https://www.ed.gov/news/press-relea...-students-ineffective-career-college-programs

    But you have years of negotiated rulemaking with the public (i.e., everyone from private citizens, to schools, lenders, loan servicers, attorneys, industry groups, and so on), lawsuits, etc. before you get to final rules and implementation - all of the above is what the Secretary wants to hit reset on.
     
  11. Ryan_G

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    What percent of people have an idea of the career they would like to enter before and or even during college?

    I sure did not. And a lot undergraduates I work with, sure do not. My anecdotal evidence is probably less than 20% have an idea of a career. And even if they end up in that career, it could easily change/transition over time.

    But I agree that there needs to be some epic changes made to the current education system. What those are? And will they ever happen? jagsfan.gif
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  12. sacrelicio

    sacrelicio

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    A lot of this "Cut regulation and spending! It's wasteful!" bullshit ends up causing more waste since now all the time and money you spent trying to get up to speed or implement something is now down the toilet.
     
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  13. FATSH1TTY

    FATSH1TTY

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    As would my wife, she piled up debt so high getting through school, private school mind you.

    My parents didn't save shit for me. I worked and paid what I could on my own and eventually said fuck taking out loans, and quit before finishing.

    Now I can afford school easily- they just aren't lo

    I agree with that. Hell, most folks find out after the fact that employers just wanna see you stick around and grind for something( diploma ) as proof you will be willing to learn and grow.

    But at what point do you tell someone their degree is obscure and just won't bring the money worth their investment? You can't!
     
  14. sacrelicio

    sacrelicio

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    Higher ed wasn't initially meant to be a path to a job, it was generally the pursuit of upper classes, you know, learn about literature and political science and history and etc. and employers favored people with educations, even if they weren't directly applicable to the job, so then people started getting degrees in order to get a job, so now what is college for? To get job skills or a higher education for it's own sake? It's sort of a hybrid. And people still get jobs that had little to nothing to do with their degrees all the time so it's still not necessarily meant to just directly train you for work.
     
  15. drgarage

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    When the going gets tough, the tough get to sit in big boy trucks and boats!
     
  16. ncaudle

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    #talktransportation is back!
     
  17. FEUO

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    And the goal for privatized lenders should be what then?

    So you want education reform in the way of offerings v tuition? I can somewhat support this as tuition is out of control generally. I just don't support denying an academically qualified student from attending the school they want. If you will base it on tuition/loan then its back to elitism rules. Fuck that.
     
  18. reverseapachemaster

    reverseapachemaster

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  19. reverseapachemaster

    reverseapachemaster

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    Have you been watching Pocahontas on youtube?

    Can we cap other for-profit entities, or just ones you don't like?

    I guess thousands of years of academia has it wrong.

    Among the many problems with this idea is that it will price out a lot of people from college educated positions which lack a path to massive wealth like teaching, social work and criminal justice. The problems with this approach are so substantial that it is clear you have little understanding of the job market or education.


    Aside from the massive amount of #ButObama in these posts, it's bizarre that your criticism of big government is apparently cured by more government regulation in the form of lending regulation, regulation of standards at for-profit entities and profit caps on private institutions. Those are awfully big government solutions to a problem.
     
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  20. Phischy

    Phischy

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    That they be allowed to issue educational loans. But at a fixed rate and they can decide how much risk they want to bear in those loans.


    The reform needs to include what institutions can be a .edu. Really crack down on for profit schools. Also agree that bankruptcy shouldn't allow to eliminate educational debts. Else you'll have a huge wave of people assuming a lot of debt and never intending to pay it off.

    And a person can still go to any school they want, but with the understand the debt they intend to incur will be difficult to pay off in the degree choice. So they'd have to find other sources of support. Loans could be taken out but capped at a certain %, and other support to fill in the gap.

    But per the given situation the federal government should not be enabling people into crushing debt just because someone wants to go to X schoolfor a degree in a field that cannot hope to pay the debt back.