What Happened to Southampton Brewing?

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Corbot_3000

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Messages
436
Reaction score
897
Location
Ann Arbor, Michigan
Southampton Brewing had a great streak where they released some incredibly sought after beers, some of which hold up to this day - Black Raspberry Lambic, Berliner Weiss, and Peconic County. Why did they drop off the face of the earth from an experimental beer standpoint? Change in brewer? Change in business practices?

I've heard rumors that a second batch of Black Raspberry Lambic has been in the works for years, but nothing to substantiate those claims.
 
Southampton Brewing had a great streak where they released some incredibly sought after beers, some of which hold up to this day - Black Raspberry Lambic, Berliner Weiss, and Peconic County. Why did they drop off the face of the earth from an experimental beer standpoint? Change in brewer? Change in business practices?

I've heard rumors that a second batch of Black Raspberry Lambic has been in the works for years, but nothing to substantiate those claims.

This. Those beers were all brewed by Phil Markowski, who is now at Two Roads Brewing. Pretty sure that Two Roads recently put out his newest take on a SHBRL-type beer, "Framboise Noir" or something like that.
 
Awesome topic of discussion!

In my opinion Phil was southampton. The man (literally) wrote the book on saisons and his writing and beer was a big influence to me when my fascination with brewing and saisons was just budding.

He crafted some marvelous beer and enjoyed hosting the special beer releases. Once he departed, not only did he physically leave but the whole spirit of the place died. The brewer who took his place (Evan?) has been rumored to be the one responsible for SHBRL but I dont know that for a fact. What I can say though is that Evan has little to no interest in holding special beer releases which is why they pretty much died out. He makes beer and it comes and goes without any hype or hysteria.

The annual pilgrimage to southampton use to be one of my favorite beer trips. Despite snow drifts that were 5 feet taller than my car, it was always a fun time seeing the old familiar faces, sharing brews in the freezing cold, soaking up the drafts and buying entirely too many bottles to go.
 
Other brewers that also followed a similar path and possibly worth discussing:

Portsmouth with Kate the Great (brewer left)
Flossmoor with Hi-Fi Rye and Wooden Hell (brewer also left, Wooden Hell being brewed again, though)
Midnight Sun with M (although I would argue they've released some awesome beers in the past couple years).

From a business standpoint, it's amazing how these breweries failed to capitalize on such craft beer hype.
 
Other brewers that also followed a similar path and possibly worth discussing:

Portsmouth with Kate the Great (brewer left)
Flossmoor with Hi-Fi Rye and Wooden Hell (brewer also left, Wooden Hell being brewed again, though)
Midnight Sun with M (although I would argue they've released some awesome beers in the past couple years).

From a business standpoint, it's amazing how these breweries failed to capitalize on such craft beer hype.
Flossmoor is run by some real savvy business people.

They'll ruin Wooden Hell, I'm sure.
 
What I also find interesting is that the brewers who have brewed such highly acclaimed beers didn't go on to create another sought after beer at a new brewery - maybe they just got lucky at their old job, and for some reason they aren't able to replicate past successes. Maybe their new beers are just as good, but the beer community isn't paying as much attention. I'm pretty confident if Cory King or Mike from TG opened new breweries, their hype would follow them.
 
What I also find interesting is that the brewers who have brewed such highly acclaimed beers didn't go on to create another sought after beer at a new brewery - maybe they just got lucky at their old job, and for some reason they aren't able to replicate past successes. Maybe their new beers are just as good, but the beer community isn't paying as much attention. I'm pretty confident if Cory King or Mike from TG opened new breweries, their hype would follow them.

Gabe at Anchorage (who brewed M and lots of the other old-school Midnight Sun whales) has certainly pumped out a few beers that hit that sort of hype/demand level, most notably b1 and b3 of A Deal With the Devil.
 
What I also find interesting is that the brewers who have brewed such highly acclaimed beers didn't go on to create another sought after beer at a new brewery - maybe they just got lucky at their old job, and for some reason they aren't able to replicate past successes. Maybe their new beers are just as good, but the beer community isn't paying as much attention. I'm pretty confident if Cory King or Mike from TG opened new breweries, their hype would follow them.

To be completely honest, im surprised that 2 roads limited releases are not on the same level as the old southampton ones. Maybe that will change in time? 2 roads igor's dream is pretty damn similar to southampton RIS - bone dry, roasty and hoppy big stout. Phil even put the #newmoneyhypetwist on it and released 3 different barrel aged versions with bottle counts sub 500. I really wanted to try the framboise noir or whatever it was but damn if i have not heard a single peep about that beer post-release.

Another factor is that so much is going on in the beer world now that its easy for a place to make awesome stuff that flys under the radar. Its almost like in order for a place to get the super sought after designation, it takes a certain amount of effort by the locals to drive demand by making trades that garner attention. And when locals dont give a **** about trading, they keep silent about it so they can silently reap the benefits without **** getting crazy. Dare I mention Bullfrog grrrz and how a certain someone offered the likes of midnight sun M for more bottles? People went absolutely bananas, flew in from out of state and ransacked the next release and when it didnt trade for the same level of stuff as the first batch - it seemingly got crucified.

Beer is strange. Demand/highly acclaimed status and how/why it got there is next level perplexing.
 
Other brewers that also followed a similar path and possibly worth discussing:

Portsmouth with Kate the Great (brewer left)
Flossmoor with Hi-Fi Rye and Wooden Hell (brewer also left, Wooden Hell being brewed again, though)
Midnight Sun with M (although I would argue they've released some awesome beers in the past couple years).

From a business standpoint, it's amazing how these breweries failed to capitalize on such craft beer hype.


Guess I'll ad to this, hope you don't mind.
Also Greenman's Mike Karnowski (sp?), which was a little less detrimental I guess since he was their sour guy I believe, but a lot of the sour beer fans have shifted to his new spot Zebulon Artisan Ales, which gets some distro in NC now. He's doing very interesting styles, including old world styles and completely original stuff. All have been very enjoyable. Green man sells a whole lot of normal beer styles and they have a pretty big distribution footprint in the south, so I think most of the people concerned with this are just sour fans.
 
Gabe at Anchorage (who brewed M and lots of the other old-school Midnight Sun whales) has certainly pumped out a few beers that hit that sort of hype/demand level, most notably b1 and b3 of A Deal With the Devil.
I've been lucky (read: dumb enough with money) to try M a couple times, and nothing Anchorage has released has even come close to it. Never got the love the DWtD, it was nothing special. I'm not totally sure on the timeline of Todd leaving Floosmoor for 50-50, but the first PvW Eclipse was a legit whale for a while, not on the level of Wooden Hell but it made the lists. I think the main reason 50-50 didn't make more of those beers is that they cashed in by starting to make a ton of everything and then people got jaded. (Though I say this as an unabashed 50-50 homer, I think Eclipse ages better than any other stout I've found.)

Has the KtG brewer's new venture started up yet? It's been years and I've heard nothing. I really liked KtG and wanted it to be easy to get.
To be completely honest, im surprised that 2 roads limited releases are not on the same level as the old southampton ones. Maybe that will change in time? 2 roads igor's dream is pretty damn similar to southampton RIS - bone dry, roasty and hoppy big stout. Phil even put the #newmoneyhypetwist on it and released 3 different barrel aged versions with bottle counts sub 500. I really wanted to try the framboise noir or whatever it was but damn if i have not heard a single peep about that beer post-release.

Another factor is that so much is going on in the beer world now that its easy for a place to make awesome stuff that flys under the radar. Its almost like in order for a place to get the super sought after designation, it takes a certain amount of effort by the locals to drive demand by making trades that garner attention. And when locals dont give a **** about trading, they keep silent about it so they can silently reap the benefits without **** getting crazy. Dare I mention Bullfrog grrrz and how a certain someone offered the likes of midnight sun M for more bottles? People went absolutely bananas, flew in from out of state and ransacked the next release and when it didnt trade for the same level of stuff as the first batch - it seemingly got crucified.

Beer is strange. Demand/highly acclaimed status and how/why it got there is next level perplexing.
Right, it's why you'll have people going absolutely apeshit for something like Assassin when it's worse than the BCBS they have turding up their closet cellars. Or the new craze for all these IPAs. Are they good? Sure. Are they significantly better than the ones that plenty of other local breweries are making? Maybe I'm spoiled, but there are at least 5-6 breweries I can drive to that make beers on par with them. But does anyone outside of driving distance go apeshit when Fieldwork puts on their Galaxy IPA? No, and I don't know what the difference between them and Trillium is.

The trading market is definitely mostly psychological, and while it always has been there used to be a much bigger connection between the objective assessments (bottlecount, cost, #/person, etc) and value, and even the biggest whales had some connection to reality, Dave and M and Framboos were just really ****ing hard to find. But now you have crazy-ass **** where some non-barrel-aged coffee stout can sell for the same price as a Don Q and it makes no sense to me. I wonder if part of it is that 5-6 years ago there was almost no place in the country where you could get all of your basic beer needs met (ie good IPA, stout, Belgian styles, Farmhouse styles, etc), so traders were doing a lot more exploring and it was less about status, but now most major markets will mostly take care of that, so trading has become this stupid dick-measuring contest. It always had that, of course, but now people just getting started aren't looking to sample other place's locals, they go straight for the "whales" (which are now >10,000 unit canned IPA releases or some shitty adjunct stout). Maybe I'm just a grumpy old man. This did get pretty rambling so probably.
 
Phil's new stuff at 2 Roads is just starting to hit it's stride.... was off at first but he seems to be dialing it in... really making some fun stuff now from time to time... unfortunately, it took longer with all the pressure to make sure the contract brewing side is rolling to make money

Todd Mott on the other hand... nothing has really hit at Tributary... he doesn't have the rights to the name "KTG" so he released "Mott the Lesser"... sadly, this is one tale where neither side was better after the split
 
Todd Mott on the other hand... nothing has really hit at Tributary... he doesn't have the rights to the name "KTG" so he released "Mott the Lesser"... sadly, this is one tale where neither side was better after the split

I had Mott the Lesser on tap in Maine, and I thought it was fantastic. Then again, I never got to try a non-infected version of KtG...

giphy.gif
 
I had Mott the Lesser on tap in Maine, and I thought it was fantastic. Then again, I never got to try a non-infected version of KtG...

giphy.gif

it was good... but other than that beer, there's been nothing out of Tributary that I've heard that is even memorable
 
Full disclosure: Wooden Hell and Kate the Great are one of the few American "whales" I never got to try. I *guess* the next batch of Wooden Hell will count, but I never did get to tick Kate, even though I started paying attention to beer releases back in 2011.
 
To be completely honest, im surprised that 2 roads limited releases are not on the same level as the old southampton ones. Maybe that will change in time? 2 roads igor's dream is pretty damn similar to southampton RIS - bone dry, roasty and hoppy big stout. Phil even put the #newmoneyhypetwist on it and released 3 different barrel aged versions with bottle counts sub 500. I really wanted to try the framboise noir or whatever it was but damn if i have not heard a single peep about that beer post-release.

Another factor is that so much is going on in the beer world now that its easy for a place to make awesome stuff that flys under the radar. Its almost like in order for a place to get the super sought after designation, it takes a certain amount of effort by the locals to drive demand by making trades that garner attention. And when locals dont give a **** about trading, they keep silent about it so they can silently reap the benefits without **** getting crazy. Dare I mention Bullfrog grrrz and how a certain someone offered the likes of midnight sun M for more bottles? People went absolutely bananas, flew in from out of state and ransacked the next release and when it didnt trade for the same level of stuff as the first batch - it seemingly got crucified.

Beer is strange. Demand/highly acclaimed status and how/why it got there is next level perplexing.
The Two Roads wild ales have all been fantastic. The Gueuze and Framboise Noir specifically were top notch. I have no idea why they don't generate hype, I have a feeling 90% of the people in this hobby don't even know who Phil Markowski is though. Either way, I'm not complaining. These releases are low-key good times and there's no new money hysteria or **** lording involved. Reminds me of old Captain Lawrence/Southampton releases but not as busy.
 
Matt was the brewer at Flossmoor who did Wooden Hell. He moved to Eugene and became the lead brewer at Oakshire Brewing for I'm guessing around 8-9 years. He left Oakshire about a year ago to start up Alesong Brewing and Blending. They just released their first bottles this past Saturday here in Eugene. http://www.alesongbrewing.com/
 
Matt was the brewer at Flossmoor who did Wooden Hell. He moved to Eugene and became the lead brewer at Oakshire Brewing for I'm guessing around 8-9 years. He left Oakshire about a year ago to start up Alesong Brewing and Blending. They just released their first bottles this past Saturday here in Eugene. http://www.alesongbrewing.com/

Oakshire's Hellshire is a BBA-stout that is pretty damn fantastic. I've had a couple of the Alesong beers and they've all been great, and I'm really excited to try the new Alesong beers just released. I know selbyg was there last weekend. Them and Wolves and People are two of the more exciting new Oregon breweries for sure.
 
Oakshire's Hellshire is a BBA-stout that is pretty damn fantastic. I've had a couple of the Alesong beers and they've all been great, and I'm really excited to try the new Alesong beers just released. I know selbyg was there last weekend. Them and Wolves and People are two of the more exciting new Oregon breweries for sure.
Alesong had a great release they are already making some amazing beer. I'm super excited to see what they do when they get there permeant location set up.
 
The Two Roads wild ales have all been fantastic. The Gueuze and Framboise Noir specifically were top notch. I have no idea why they don't generate hype, I have a feeling 90% of the people in this hobby don't even know who Phil Markowski is though. Either way, I'm not complaining. These releases are low-key good times and there's no new money hysteria or **** lording involved. Reminds me of old Captain Lawrence/Southampton releases but not as busy.

They had their kriek and gueuze pouring the last ACBF I went to a couple years ago and there wasn't a person in line. I stood there talking and had probably 3 pours of each. Been hoping ever since they'd make it up to Boston but haven't seen or heard anyone mention them since that day. Both were excellent.
 
Gabe at Anchorage (who brewed M and lots of the other old-school Midnight Sun whales) has certainly pumped out a few beers that hit that sort of hype/demand level, most notably b1 and b3 of A Deal With the Devil.

He also seems to get a ton of respect from other brewers and breweries. The list of breweries he gets to come up for the culmination fest is stunning. I'm a bit of a homer (no pun intended) but he is making fantastic beers.
 
It seems to me that a couple things are going on here. It's partly a case where other breweries just passed them by. Just like Bruery with Black Tuesday, RR with Pliny, Dark Lord/Darkness, and so many others - they were great beers for their time. I'm not saying SHBRL doesn't stand the test of time, but moreso talking about their other stuff. No one in my generation (2014'ers gonna 2014) knows about SH RIS. mnbearsfan brought an older RIS to a share earlier this year and no one knew what it was or who made it.

A lot of these beers were great because they were first to market or early adapters for hype releases, festivals, limited allotments, trading, etc. Now with their expanded distribution and more beers in the marketplace at the same level or above they just can't compete like they used to.

I'm sure the same thing will happen with Side Project or TG. With Mike being gone they'll lose whatever alchemy he was doing to get those stouts as thick as they are and they'll fall back to the pack before someone else makes some super thick stout with some crazy adjunct we haven't even thought of yet. Or Cory King will ramp up production and everything will be a case limit and hype will die while quality decreases.
 
At the Framboise Noir release a couple of insiders said that there is allegedly a SHRBL v2.0 alike in barrels at Two Roads, apparently code named "Jambic". It is the Road Jam Raspberry wheat with the house 'lambic' cultures in it, the same way that SHRBL was produced.

The Geuze from 2 Roads is really good.

TIL "According to our resident expert, this beer was printed of a computer, using a simple word processor."

Is SHRBL > SHBRL?
Im no blogger but you mean to tell me in 1.5 years noone saw this error in the headline?

Edit - nevermind, noone cares because its no VSB
 
What I can say though is that Evan has little to no interest in holding special beer releases which is why they pretty much died out. He makes beer and it comes and goes without any hype or hysteria.

ironically, given the backlash over "hype" and special releases, shouldn't this make Southampton MORE popular?
 
What I also find interesting is that the brewers who have brewed such highly acclaimed beers didn't go on to create another sought after beer at a new brewery - maybe they just got lucky at their old job, and for some reason they aren't able to replicate past successes.

one-hit wonders are a thing in music, art, sports, etc.
 
Living ~25min from Southampton, their whole situation is just odd. They had always run their business-front as a restaurant that served their beer, never as a brewery. They do almost all of their production off-site so it doesn't feel like a brewery. They have events with "Ladies Night and DJs" more than they have beer events.

The brewery-side of things is just so disconnected from everything that it doesn't even feel like they're a brewery any longer. RIS is released to no fan-fare, no announcement, no date. It just randomly shows up in their little cooler at the front-of-house at the restaurant. Which is nice if you're a local, but the locals aren't beer people, they're golfers and Summer renters and real estate agents etc.

They recently moved to a new, smaller location which I've yet to check out, but I'm sure it'll feel even less like a brewery than the original location did.

They're a successful brewery that doesn't feel like a brewery that runs their public image like a mediocre restaurant where you can stop for a pint of Montauk Light. They're enigmatic to say the least at this point.
 
Living ~25min from Southampton, their whole situation is just odd. They had always run their business-front as a restaurant that served their beer, never as a brewery. They do almost all of their production off-site so it doesn't feel like a brewery. They have events with "Ladies Night and DJs" more than they have beer events.

The brewery-side of things is just so disconnected from everything that it doesn't even feel like they're a brewery any longer. RIS is released to no fan-fare, no announcement, no date. It just randomly shows up in their little cooler at the front-of-house at the restaurant. Which is nice if you're a local, but the locals aren't beer people, they're golfers and Summer renters and real estate agents etc.

They recently moved to a new, smaller location which I've yet to check out, but I'm sure it'll feel even less like a brewery than the original location did.

They're a successful brewery that doesn't feel like a brewery that runs their public image like a mediocre restaurant where you can stop for a pint of Montauk Light. They're enigmatic to say the least at this point.

That's so weird when you think about how ****ing popular SHBRL is. Like what kind of brewery just up and produces a white whale and then just disappears and starts serving Witbier to locals?
 
Like what kind of brewery just up and produces a white whale and then just disappears and starts serving Witbier to locals?

I mean they had been producing good beer for decades prior to SHBRL. They're not in it for the hype. They have a steady income and solid distribution. They're just happy with that. French Country Christmas, Keller Pils and May Bock are delicious beers that I'd be happy drinking anytime.

It's not a brewery that's interested in producing limited one-offs.
 
These guys were really hard to trade for back in the day. BRL was 1B to CCK's 1A on my Best American Wild list.

SHRBL of the few beers ive had that lived up to the hype, and possibly the only AWA.
Me and three friends split a bottle a year or so ago. I drank an ounce or two maybe before my gf asked for a taste. I hand her the glass and turn around to talk to a buddy about it... and less than a minute later I go back for my glass, and see crushed 95% of it lol

....It was dangerously jammy and drinkable, so not her fault <3
 
Other brewers that also followed a similar path and possibly worth discussing:

Portsmouth with Kate the Great (brewer left)
Flossmoor with Hi-Fi Rye and Wooden Hell (brewer also left, Wooden Hell being brewed again, though)
Midnight Sun with M (although I would argue they've released some awesome beers in the past couple years).

From a business standpoint, it's amazing how these breweries failed to capitalize on such craft beer hype.

****, Hi-fi and BA Hi-fi were freaking amazing. Takes me back...
 
Back
Top