Cantillon Analytics

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I'm not sure I follow. If the FGs were about the same, and the wort was all from the same batch (and thus presumably the same OG in the barrel), how are the ABVs so different? Where is the extra density coming from in the 7.4% ABV barrel?

Also, was it this report, by chance:

http://www.academia.edu/5537728/When_Beer_When_Beer_Goes_Sour-_An_NMR_Investigation
I'm not sure where the abv came from, thats the interesting part. Same wort, same OG and FG(+- .2 plato) and yet a 1.6%ABV spread.

Not that report, although I'm familiar with it. My own NMR analysis of my own barrels. ABV was a side benefit of the analysis.
 
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You guys might find this interesting if you haven't already seen it. This is 2013 DDG alcolyzer results.
Top is ABV, then density, ABW (not ER, which is not visible on the picture, as it is behind the glass), OE, EA, and ADF (not RDF).
 
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I'm not sure I follow. If the FGs were about the same, and the wort was all from the same batch (and thus presumably the same OG in the barrel), how are the ABVs so different? Where is the extra density coming from in the 7.4% ABV barrel?

Also, was it this report, by chance:

http://www.academia.edu/5537728/When_Beer_When_Beer_Goes_Sour-_An_NMR_Investigation
Couldn't ABV vary based on the activity of the bugs? If we think that a huge percentage of fermentation is from the bugs in the barrels and that every barrel is unique, wouldn't you expect to see some range? In that case you'd expect the lower ABV ones to have more of the other fermentation products (acids I guess, no idea what other compounds would be the end result of metabolism of the sugars), and the higher ABV stuff to have less of that. Bonus is that should be measurable.
 
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Couldn't ABV vary based on the activity of the bugs? If we think that a huge percentage of fermentation is from the bugs in the barrels and that every barrel is unique, wouldn't you expect to see some range? In that case you'd expect the lower ABV ones to have more of the other fermentation products (acids I guess, no idea what other compounds would be the end result of metabolism of the sugars), and the higher ABV stuff to have less of that. Bonus is that should be measurable.
Seems legit. Some barrels could have had a heavier presence of homofermentative lacto (doesn't produce alcohol) where others had a heavier presence of hetero (produces alcohol). That is the only explanation I could offer as well. Would love to hear from those more experienced though...
 
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Seems legit. Some barrels could have had a heavier presence of homofermentative lacto (doesn't produce alcohol) where others had a heavier presence of hetero (produces alcohol). That is the only explanation I could offer as well. Would love to hear from those more experienced though...
Yeah sure, blame it all on the homos.
 
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Couldn't ABV vary based on the activity of the bugs? If we think that a huge percentage of fermentation is from the bugs in the barrels and that every barrel is unique, wouldn't you expect to see some range? In that case you'd expect the lower ABV ones to have more of the other fermentation products (acids I guess, no idea what other compounds would be the end result of metabolism of the sugars), and the higher ABV stuff to have less of that. Bonus is that should be measurable.
When you look at the quanities of volatile compounds produced in Chad's Brett Project, the concentrations seem to low to have that much impact on ABV. Most are a few mg/L.

http://www.brettanomycesproject.com...ng-fermentation-with-multiple-pitching-rates/

I am leaning toward residual sugars in the barrel or evaporation for my guess. My thought is if the quantity of sugar required to make 1.6% abv were converted to another compound like ethyl acetate or acetic acid, that compound would be very obvious in the final product.
 
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Seems legit. Some barrels could have had a heavier presence of homofermentative lacto (doesn't produce alcohol) where others had a heavier presence of hetero (produces alcohol). That is the only explanation I could offer as well. Would love to hear from those more experienced though...
With the same OG and FG there should be a max ABV no matter which bugs produce it.
 
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With the same OG and FG there should be a max ABV no matter which bugs produce it.
Not sure I understand what you are implying (though I'm sure you are right!). I don't see where max ABV comes into play with regards to what I said. Homofermentative wouldn't produce alcohol, Herero would. Can you expand?

Evaporation or residual sugars do make sense. Didn't consider that.
 
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Not sure I understand what you are implying (though I'm sure you are right!). I don't see where max ABV comes into play with regards to what I said. Homofermentative wouldn't produce alcohol, Herero would. Can you expand?

Evaporation or residual sugars do make sense. Didn't consider that.
I was thinking that you were implying some Lacto strains were boosting ABV. My bad.
 
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Some lacto strains produce alcohol, some do not. Is this incorrect? Not sure where boosting comes in.

Been a while since I read 'Yeast'. Possible I need a refresher.
 
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Some lacto strains produce alcohol, some do not. Is this incorrect? Not sure where boosting comes in.

Been a while since I read 'Yeast'. Possible I need a refresher.
Whether the yeast or bacteria consumes the sugars the max abv based on OG will always be the same. If the Lacto doesn't metabolize it, the yeast will. Especially since his FGs are the same.
 
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Whether the yeast or bacteria consumes the sugars the max abv based on OG will always be the same. If the Lacto doesn't metabolize it, the yeast will. Especially since his FGs are the same.
maybe I'm reading Beerontwowheels incorrectly, but if non-abv producing lacto consume some sugars in barrel 'a' and alcohol producing lacto consumes sugars in barrel 'b', then wouldn't the ABV be different even if the OG and FG are the same across all the barrels?
 
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maybe I'm reading Beerontwowheels incorrectly, but if non-abv producing lacto consume some sugars in barrel 'a' and alcohol producing lacto consumes sugars in barrel 'b', then wouldn't the ABV be different even if the OG and FG are the same across all the barrels?
Non-Alcohol producing lacto will only eat a miniscule amount of sugar, creating .2-.6% lactic acid. Alcohol femrentive lacto will create the same amount(arguably more, its all conjecture though) of lactic acid and ferment the rest of the sugars into alcohol. Lacto wont ferment all the sugar to lactic acid, otherwise that beer would eat your fillings before you finished spitting it out.
 
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Non-Alcohol producing lacto will only eat a miniscule amount of sugar, creating .2-.6% lactic acid. Alcohol femrentive lacto will create the same amount(arguably more, its all conjecture though) of lactic acid and ferment the rest of the sugars into alcohol. Lacto wont ferment all the sugar to lactic acid, otherwise that beer would eat your fillings before you finished spitting it out.
That's what I needed to hear.
 
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If anyone is interested in having any other lambics tested feel free to PM for for an address, I will start with the sensory analysis and if there is any beer left over I will see what i can put together for the rest of the numbers. Also I will only charge you $25 per beer. ;)
I would want to burden you with that task.

There is already a second more detailed round of testing being done courtesy of olympuszymurgus.

This time we have Cantillon Iris, Tilquin OG, Timmermans OG, Beersel OG, Drie OG, Allagash Coolship, Lindemans Renee Cuvee and JK Aurelian Lure. In addition to the usual pH, IBU and density, NMR analysis is being done too.

If anyone has an extra 375ml Boon, Girardin or Beatification PM me.
 
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Couldn't ABV vary based on the activity of the bugs? If we think that a huge percentage of fermentation is from the bugs in the barrels and that every barrel is unique, wouldn't you expect to see some range? In that case you'd expect the lower ABV ones to have more of the other fermentation products (acids I guess, no idea what other compounds would be the end result of metabolism of the sugars), and the higher ABV stuff to have less of that. Bonus is that should be measurable.
Absolutely! Existing literature shows a fair bit of ABV variation between barrels of spontaneously fermented beer. What's strange is that these two beers have the same OG, the same FG, but a different ABV. Most people treat this is a simple three-variable system: if you know two of the variables {OG, FG, ABV}, then the third one is fixed. Obviously reality can be more complicated, but for most fermentations the three-variable simplification works really well. Given that alcohol makes up a large mole fraction of the finished product and has a markedly different density than water, SourBrewer's results indicate that there must be some other fermentation product whose concentration varies considerably between the two beers and has a markedly different density as well. In essence, a hidden fourth variable.
 
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Absolutely! Existing literature shows a fair bit of ABV variation between barrels of spontaneously fermented beer. What's strange is that these two beers have the same OG, the same FG, but a different ABV. Most people treat this is a simple three-variable system: if you know two of the variables {OG, FG, ABV}, then the third one is fixed. Obviously reality can be more complicated, but for most fermentations the three-variable simplification works really well. Given that alcohol makes up a large mole fraction of the finished product and has a markedly different density than water, SourBrewer's results indicate that there must be some other fermentation product whose concentration varies considerably between the two beers and has a markedly different density as well. In essence, a hidden fourth variable.
In the Cantillon testing OG is estimated from FG & ABV. In Olympuszymurgus's case it is a known OG and FG with different ABV, but that could be influenced by the barrels from things like residual grape sugars and evaporation. Would be a better experiment to ferment a batch in stainless to reduce variables.
 

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