Dissolved Oxygen - Canning/Bottling

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In a recent Full Pint podcast, they interview Vinnie from Russian River. When asked about a canning line, he indicated that they had no current plans for a canning line and said that cans were inferior due to the greater amount of dissolved oxygen due to, I think exposed surface area.

I've seen this mentioned before when discussing long term aging, though stupac2 has refuted well. My question is what affect would DO have on beer in the near term?

I'm going to go ahead and tag duketheredeemer as well.

Right around the one hour mark: https://thefullpint.com/podcast/podcast-ep-113-vinnie-cilurzo-of-russian-river-brewing/
 
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Well the exposed surface area thing sounds really stupid me to (like there's no way to engineer around that :rolleyes:), but beyond that I know fuckall about canning.

I will say, though, that big beer takes staling very seriously and they obviously have no issues canning. Sierra Nevada does as well. It would be pretty surprising if cans weren't at least on par, and it seems like they'd be less likely to fail as well.
 
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Depends on way too many factors but in general cans do tend to have higher DO levels. I disagree on using that as an excuse not to move to cans though, it's certainly possible to get low DO levels in cans if you know what you're doing. When I was shopping around for DO meters we tested some New Glarus cans that had single digit ppb which is seriously impressive.
 
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Depends on way too many factors but in general cans do tend to have higher DO levels. I disagree on using that as an excuse not to move to cans though, it's certainly possible to get low DO levels in cans if you know what you're doing. When I was shopping around for DO meters we tested some New Glarus cans that had single digit ppb which is seriously impressive.
What does it affect beyond like "freshness"? I mean, if we are talking about a product that should have a shelf life of 1-2 months (for the hoppy beers), would this even have an effect on that?
 
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What does it affect beyond like "freshness"? I mean, if we are talking about a product that should have a shelf life of 1-2 months (for the hoppy beers), would this even have an effect on that?
In an ideal world 99% of beer should be consumed as fresh as possible but that's not always the case so brewers will try to make their beer taste as fresh as they can for as long as they can.
 
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Depends on way too many factors but in general cans do tend to have higher DO levels. I disagree on using that as an excuse not to move to cans though, it's certainly possible to get low DO levels in cans if you know what you're doing. When I was shopping around for DO meters we tested some New Glarus cans that had single digit ppb which is seriously impressive.
I took a class at the white labs boulder extension which is connected to upslope and when we walked through their lab their nice lab tech walked us through her process and yeah, they hover under 10ppb for all their cans and if they go over that they know something is wrong and they stop the line and figure it out.
 

KevSal

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Vinnie just needs to finally give up on those 500ml bottles and switch to 12 oz. six packs. No reason why they can't be doing that at their new facility. (Was this talked about in the podcast?)
yes it was, they have the space, but i think the main factor is they haven't shopped for a canning line, which i think the real answer is. i think it would be a smart move to do personally, blind pig cans sound awesome!
 

KevSal

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KevSal

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the moment it happens, you'll definitively be getting some of the first cans i can get my hands on ;)

on a funnier note, vinnie challenges that the day they have a carousal style canning line he'll think about it. sent him an email with a youtube video of the exact canning line revolution brewing uses, which has everything we was talking about htat he would need in podcast. maybe it will convince him lol.
 
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I mean, I love aged beer to a pathological degree, but I'd agree that nearly all beer (by volume, or brand name, or style) is best fresh.
 
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I mean, I love aged beer to a pathological degree, but I'd agree that nearly all beer (by volume, or brand name, or style) is best fresh.
Yeah this is what I meant. Beer that ages well is a tiny fraction of beer produced worldwide.
 
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Vinnie's comments were the can seamer doesn't work as fast as the filler. If you can go directly from filling to seaming he'd do it but if 4 cans are filled, then seamed one at a time, the 4th can in each line is exposed longer and will have higher DO.

That was the point he was making. He said he'd like to can STS, but not with the current equipment he's seen on the market.
 
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Vinnie's comments were the can seamer doesn't work as fast as the filler. If you can go directly from filling to seaming he'd do it but if 4 cans are filled, then seamed one at a time, the 4th can in each line is exposed longer and will have higher DO.

That was the point he was making. He said he'd like to can STS, but not with the current equipment he's seen on the market.
That's a fair point for the smaller canning lines, I assumed a brewery the size of Russian River would be looking at rotary fillers like KHS or Krones.
 
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That's a fair point for the smaller canning lines, I assumed a brewery the size of Russian River would be looking at rotary fillers like KHS or Krones.
I think that's exactly what he wants but the issue is scale/cost. Whatever it may be it's not in specs or price range of what RR can afford. That was my take away.
 
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Oxygenation due to process controls isn't my speciality, but I can easily believe that Vinny is correct and the specifics of how a can/bottle is filled can have a significant effect on how much DO ends up in the product. I would guess that how long it takes between filling and capping matters, but perhaps less than how quickly the can is filled and how much surface area is exposed through turbulence and frothing. So Vinny's concerns that he'll both introduce oxygen and variability by capping four cans at once isn't unfounded.

I'd think some of the best ways to lower the DO would be to fill the cans quickly, from the bottom up, with a filling head designed to minimize turbulent flow, and to cap the cans as quickly as possible after filling. Bonus points if you can keep the whole canning line under a blanket of cold CO2, though that's a hard enough that I imagine that only really big breweries could afford such a thing.
 
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